1 00:00:08,570 --> 00:00:17,170 [Music] 2 00:00:25,490 --> 00:00:20,659 welcome to shattered reality with their 3 00:00:28,550 --> 00:00:25,500 hosts Kate Valentine and furs prepare to 4 00:00:36,350 --> 00:00:28,560 have your paradigm shifted into truths 5 00:00:37,579 --> 00:00:36,360 questioned and now shattered reality hey 6 00:00:41,510 --> 00:00:37,589 Kate 7 00:00:45,740 --> 00:00:41,520 back again I am so happy to see you here 8 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:45,750 well don't do the last few shows as some 9 00:00:53,090 --> 00:00:49,410 of our regular listeners will know Kate 10 00:00:55,610 --> 00:00:53,100 has tried to Skype in and call in and be 11 00:00:57,979 --> 00:00:55,620 on the phone but it somehow it didn't 12 00:01:00,319 --> 00:00:57,989 work that well for the entire show it's 13 00:01:04,130 --> 00:01:00,329 because Skype is paranormal that's why I 14 00:01:07,130 --> 00:01:04,140 think it's something like that but 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:07,140 anyway it is good to be back and I see 16 00:01:11,660 --> 00:01:08,850 once again you've gotten us a wonderful 17 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:11,670 guest why thank you Miss Kate Valentine 18 00:01:21,230 --> 00:01:16,050 let's slate the show mm-hm and today is 19 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:21,240 our 69th podcast believe it or not and 20 00:01:29,359 --> 00:01:24,450 we have a wonderful wonderful guest here 21 00:01:33,169 --> 00:01:29,369 with us mr. David B Metcalf and he is a 22 00:01:36,699 --> 00:01:33,179 very diverse character he has a lot of 23 00:01:39,669 --> 00:01:36,709 interest in the folkloric traditions 24 00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:39,679 particularly those that have a 25 00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:44,270 paranormal aspect to them he has been a 26 00:01:51,350 --> 00:01:47,910 researcher with one of our other guests 27 00:01:56,930 --> 00:01:51,360 mr. mark Baku Zee and maybe I'm not sure 28 00:02:00,469 --> 00:01:56,940 with his wife dr. Julie by shal and he 29 00:02:05,529 --> 00:02:00,479 is currently working with another one of 30 00:02:08,389 --> 00:02:05,539 our guests a dr. Andrew chestnut from 31 00:02:10,940 --> 00:02:08,399 Virginia Catholic University something 32 00:02:12,729 --> 00:02:10,950 like that anyway Ted and Andrew will 33 00:02:16,850 --> 00:02:12,739 forgive me if I've got the name of the 34 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:16,860 University wrong but andrew is working 35 00:02:24,350 --> 00:02:18,450 with David 36 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:24,360 on his andrás second book about sontham 37 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:28,410 what they st. death from from Mexico 38 00:02:37,009 --> 00:02:32,610 basically so put your hands together and 39 00:02:41,509 --> 00:02:37,019 welcome mr. David B Metcalf I always say 40 00:02:44,150 --> 00:02:41,519 that I can do it but I wanna hey Dave 41 00:02:46,130 --> 00:02:44,160 are you there yeah thank you I'm so glad 42 00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:46,140 to be on this is very exciting 43 00:02:52,130 --> 00:02:48,120 okay well you certainly have a very 44 00:02:53,780 --> 00:02:52,140 diverse interest and folklore especially 45 00:02:57,860 --> 00:02:53,790 is fascinating I think to almost 46 00:03:00,170 --> 00:02:57,870 everybody and I would assume that since 47 00:03:03,559 --> 00:03:00,180 most of the people who were speaking 48 00:03:05,750 --> 00:03:03,569 about folklore were pre-scientific I'm 49 00:03:10,670 --> 00:03:05,760 sure most of their beliefs would fall 50 00:03:13,940 --> 00:03:10,680 into the paranormal belief but and so to 51 00:03:15,949 --> 00:03:13,950 me it would be what a human who is not 52 00:03:19,309 --> 00:03:15,959 exposed to science what they would think 53 00:03:21,229 --> 00:03:19,319 of nature and so I think your interest 54 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:21,239 in that is fascinating what whatever got 55 00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:24,510 you started in that yeah yeah and I 56 00:03:28,430 --> 00:03:26,280 wanted to clarify too with with mark and 57 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:28,440 Julie I'm the editor-in-chief for 58 00:03:33,020 --> 00:03:31,170 threshold which is the journal out of 59 00:03:34,610 --> 00:03:33,030 print great research center but I 60 00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:34,620 actually haven't done any research 61 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:38,310 directly with them so I think mark had 62 00:03:42,229 --> 00:03:40,290 talked about when he was on that he 63 00:03:44,569 --> 00:03:42,239 hadn't done the the mediumship end of 64 00:03:47,870 --> 00:03:44,579 the research and and I don't do any 65 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:47,880 other research I do the the kind of I'm 66 00:03:52,759 --> 00:03:49,730 on the community board for wind bridge 67 00:03:56,390 --> 00:03:52,769 and then and then so I'm one of the 68 00:03:58,610 --> 00:03:56,400 advisors and then also I the 69 00:04:01,420 --> 00:03:58,620 editor-in-chief for the the journal that 70 00:04:04,059 --> 00:04:01,430 they run which is the it's 71 00:04:05,809 --> 00:04:04,069 multidisciplinary or multi 72 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:05,819 multidisciplinary consciousness studies 73 00:04:10,970 --> 00:04:08,250 so we kind of covering the whole field 74 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:10,980 there and with the the folklore the I 75 00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:12,690 don't it's hard to say where that 76 00:04:20,810 --> 00:04:15,510 actually my interest came in honestly I 77 00:04:24,770 --> 00:04:20,820 think it was in grade school I was bored 78 00:04:26,750 --> 00:04:24,780 in the library and I got a bunch of kind 79 00:04:29,060 --> 00:04:26,760 of like kids books on different 80 00:04:31,290 --> 00:04:29,070 traditional folk tales than that and it 81 00:04:34,010 --> 00:04:31,300 just really it really struck me 82 00:04:36,540 --> 00:04:34,020 and then that kind of bridged in with 83 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:36,550 you know in the eighties Jim Henson was 84 00:04:40,740 --> 00:04:38,530 real big and he had that storyteller 85 00:04:44,029 --> 00:04:40,750 series which was on a his take on 86 00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:44,039 folklore and that really captured me and 87 00:04:51,899 --> 00:04:46,240 then I've just been really really 88 00:04:53,969 --> 00:04:51,909 fortunate in terms of the public 89 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:53,979 schooling that I had where I always had 90 00:05:01,200 --> 00:04:57,970 teachers that were really supportive of 91 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:01,210 weird interests so all along the way 92 00:05:05,820 --> 00:05:04,240 from grade school up through college and 93 00:05:07,860 --> 00:05:05,830 then after college 94 00:05:10,950 --> 00:05:07,870 I've just been fortunate to meet folks 95 00:05:12,659 --> 00:05:10,960 to kind of continue those interests and 96 00:05:15,570 --> 00:05:12,669 then to bring it into something that's a 97 00:05:18,809 --> 00:05:15,580 little bit more focused so and you went 98 00:05:24,420 --> 00:05:18,819 to school in Illinois yes yeah I went to 99 00:05:28,890 --> 00:05:24,430 Elmhurst College and had a weird kind of 100 00:05:32,850 --> 00:05:28,900 situation there where I was a philosophy 101 00:05:36,450 --> 00:05:32,860 major but I pretty much studied every 102 00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:36,460 topic I had a really nice scholarship so 103 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:38,560 it you know I was able to to branch out 104 00:05:45,779 --> 00:05:40,210 and there were a couple teachers at 105 00:05:48,149 --> 00:05:45,789 Elmhurst when I went that were staff the 106 00:05:50,430 --> 00:05:48,159 head of the philosophy department when I 107 00:05:54,510 --> 00:05:50,440 got there was a little specialists and 108 00:05:57,959 --> 00:05:54,520 Socratic and pre-socratic philosophy and 109 00:06:00,629 --> 00:05:57,969 then he left after two years I think and 110 00:06:02,850 --> 00:06:00,639 we got a new head who was the specialist 111 00:06:05,570 --> 00:06:02,860 in neuroscience and cognitive philosophy 112 00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:05,580 so philosophy of mind and that and then 113 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:08,409 there's a really good history in that 114 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:11,650 was William her Stein and then there was 115 00:06:17,010 --> 00:06:14,050 a really good professor there in history 116 00:06:19,980 --> 00:06:17,020 who was worked a lot with the University 117 00:06:23,430 --> 00:06:19,990 of Chicago's Oriental Institute and her 118 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:23,440 specialty was Babylonian and Assyrian 119 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:26,110 history with specialization in 120 00:06:32,850 --> 00:06:29,289 witchcraft and healing magic traditions 121 00:06:35,790 --> 00:06:32,860 so she in a January course on black 122 00:06:38,339 --> 00:06:35,800 magic and then another January course on 123 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:38,349 white magic and so that was kind of my 124 00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:41,110 taste of the the academic end of this 125 00:06:44,470 --> 00:06:42,620 stuff 126 00:06:49,030 --> 00:06:44,480 and that's kind of how I got into that 127 00:06:50,620 --> 00:06:49,040 and then most of what I'm doing now came 128 00:06:52,570 --> 00:06:50,630 out of a conversation I had with her 129 00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:52,580 when I was graduating which was well how 130 00:06:57,070 --> 00:06:54,110 do I pursue this you know in grad 131 00:06:59,710 --> 00:06:57,080 studies and she said well you need to 132 00:07:01,240 --> 00:06:59,720 learn at least one other language too 133 00:07:04,659 --> 00:07:01,250 because you're probably gonna have to 134 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:04,669 learn Greek or Latin plus a continental 135 00:07:09,310 --> 00:07:06,970 language you know Spanish German and 136 00:07:10,629 --> 00:07:09,320 then on top of that you're gonna have to 137 00:07:14,650 --> 00:07:10,639 do all this other stuff and I was like 138 00:07:16,719 --> 00:07:14,660 well as I'm graduating I don't think 139 00:07:18,070 --> 00:07:16,729 like looking forward to however long 140 00:07:20,050 --> 00:07:18,080 it's gonna take me to learn Latin and 141 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:20,060 Greek it's really an option so I just 142 00:07:26,260 --> 00:07:22,610 went into you know the real world and 143 00:07:27,969 --> 00:07:26,270 started doing marketing in that and got 144 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:27,979 in on digital communications but as I 145 00:07:31,570 --> 00:07:29,990 was doing that I realized whoa as I'm 146 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:31,580 learning marketing as I'm doing digital 147 00:07:36,879 --> 00:07:34,850 communications there's nothing in this 148 00:07:37,930 --> 00:07:36,889 skill set you know I can just turn all 149 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:37,940 these skills about learning 150 00:07:42,879 --> 00:07:40,310 professionally into pursuing the 151 00:07:44,830 --> 00:07:42,889 scholarship and you know a Google 152 00:07:47,350 --> 00:07:44,840 Translate and stuff like that can I can 153 00:07:49,690 --> 00:07:47,360 muddle through translations I don't need 154 00:07:53,590 --> 00:07:49,700 to be the world's you know most foremost 155 00:07:55,180 --> 00:07:53,600 expert on foreign languages so and in 156 00:07:56,740 --> 00:07:55,190 doing that I found that one of the 157 00:08:00,190 --> 00:07:56,750 things that you know traditional 158 00:08:02,710 --> 00:08:00,200 academia is lacking is some of those 159 00:08:05,230 --> 00:08:02,720 contemporary skills so that was actually 160 00:08:09,010 --> 00:08:05,240 how Andrew and I had originally hooked 161 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:09,020 up I did an interview with him for the 162 00:08:15,690 --> 00:08:12,160 revealer which is New York University's 163 00:08:18,460 --> 00:08:15,700 religion and Media Studies journal and 164 00:08:19,870 --> 00:08:18,470 you know we got to talking and I'd 165 00:08:23,620 --> 00:08:19,880 looked at I've been looking at Santa 166 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:23,630 Muerte since 2005 and never thought I'd 167 00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:25,130 have a chance to research it but you 168 00:08:29,740 --> 00:08:26,870 know since I had been looking at it and 169 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:29,750 the interview went really well we got 170 00:08:35,290 --> 00:08:32,450 invited up to the morbid Anatomy Museum 171 00:08:39,459 --> 00:08:35,300 well at the time of anatomies library in 172 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:39,469 Brooklyn and it was actually the night 173 00:08:43,899 --> 00:08:42,169 that the people who funded the 174 00:08:46,030 --> 00:08:43,909 transition into the morbid Anatomy 175 00:08:48,250 --> 00:08:46,040 museum it was I think maybe the first 176 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:48,260 time that they visited but they actually 177 00:08:52,329 --> 00:08:50,690 helped kind of set up an event so it was 178 00:08:54,670 --> 00:08:52,339 this big event we had a 179 00:08:57,550 --> 00:08:54,680 mariachi band and there were sugar 180 00:08:59,559 --> 00:08:57,560 skulls and there was a local tacky era 181 00:09:01,110 --> 00:08:59,569 brought in you know food and stuff it 182 00:09:04,329 --> 00:09:01,120 wasn't it was an incredible height and 183 00:09:07,749 --> 00:09:04,339 Andrew and I decided to collaborate on a 184 00:09:09,309 --> 00:09:07,759 digital project to kind of keep the 185 00:09:13,030 --> 00:09:09,319 research going because he had his book 186 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:13,040 out in 2012 you know and he was 187 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:15,110 publishing on Huffington Post but this 188 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:17,689 the website that we developed and the 189 00:09:23,590 --> 00:09:20,569 Twitter and then kind of just the way 190 00:09:27,249 --> 00:09:23,600 that we did the kind of decentralized 191 00:09:29,319 --> 00:09:27,259 research really helped move it forward 192 00:09:31,749 --> 00:09:29,329 and keep it fresh so it wasn't just a 193 00:09:34,150 --> 00:09:31,759 book sitting out there and it allowed us 194 00:09:36,129 --> 00:09:34,160 to go a lot farther with the research we 195 00:09:40,059 --> 00:09:36,139 could track it over time we could get to 196 00:09:42,220 --> 00:09:40,069 know devotees and you see how that was 197 00:09:45,879 --> 00:09:42,230 changing see how we it also gave us a 198 00:09:49,119 --> 00:09:45,889 view of folklore so that well name that 199 00:09:52,299 --> 00:09:49,129 folklore but folk religion as it's 200 00:09:54,249 --> 00:09:52,309 becoming digitized so one of the things 201 00:09:57,129 --> 00:09:54,259 that you know it's interesting you know 202 00:10:00,699 --> 00:09:57,139 you'd said that folklore is kind of like 203 00:10:07,019 --> 00:10:00,709 a pre scientific view of nature the more 204 00:10:09,249 --> 00:10:07,029 you see with digital culture is that you 205 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:09,259 there's a really interesting communal 206 00:10:17,049 --> 00:10:12,970 nature to folk traditions that is 207 00:10:19,809 --> 00:10:17,059 growing in digital in very interesting 208 00:10:22,749 --> 00:10:19,819 ways and so one of the things that I've 209 00:10:24,819 --> 00:10:22,759 been looking at in the media studies end 210 00:10:27,759 --> 00:10:24,829 is how did these traditions which we 211 00:10:30,150 --> 00:10:27,769 look at is you know maybe rural or or 212 00:10:33,210 --> 00:10:30,160 country traditions or you know not not 213 00:10:35,860 --> 00:10:33,220 contemporary urban traditions 214 00:10:38,139 --> 00:10:35,870 how do those actually exist in the world 215 00:10:41,949 --> 00:10:38,149 today in the contemporary world and what 216 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:41,959 I've found is that they you transfer 217 00:10:45,850 --> 00:10:43,490 almost perfectly to digital 218 00:10:47,650 --> 00:10:45,860 it's just they transfer in ways that we 219 00:10:48,970 --> 00:10:47,660 don't necessarily recognize them if 220 00:10:51,879 --> 00:10:48,980 we're looking for something else 221 00:10:57,009 --> 00:10:51,889 what do you mean by digitized just that 222 00:10:59,710 --> 00:10:57,019 it's just that it's somewhere on a let's 223 00:11:02,980 --> 00:10:59,720 say a Google search or internet internet 224 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:02,990 or yeah so one of the interesting things 225 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:06,290 with Santa Muerte is that there's 226 00:11:13,329 --> 00:11:11,690 a tradition of retablos in Mexican folk 227 00:11:17,050 --> 00:11:13,339 religion and Latin American folk 228 00:11:20,139 --> 00:11:17,060 Catholicism and the retablo is a kind of 229 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:20,149 like a little painting that thinks a 230 00:11:27,730 --> 00:11:23,690 saint or usually the Virgin Mary for a 231 00:11:29,379 --> 00:11:27,740 specific incident an icon well it's not 232 00:11:31,269 --> 00:11:29,389 really an icon it's like it's almost 233 00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:31,279 like a comic strip it's like a one panel 234 00:11:36,309 --> 00:11:34,000 comic strip that shows the event so say 235 00:11:38,829 --> 00:11:36,319 you know some brother fell out a window 236 00:11:41,259 --> 00:11:38,839 and they survived because the Virgin 237 00:11:42,819 --> 00:11:41,269 Mary came down and saved them so they'll 238 00:11:45,129 --> 00:11:42,829 be a retablo that's painted where a 239 00:11:46,870 --> 00:11:45,139 guy's falling out window and the Virgin 240 00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:46,880 Mary is hovering by the window and then 241 00:11:51,910 --> 00:11:49,910 they'll be attacks that says you know my 242 00:11:53,259 --> 00:11:51,920 brother was falling out a window and I 243 00:11:57,249 --> 00:11:53,269 prayed to the Virgin Mary and he was 244 00:11:59,439 --> 00:11:57,259 saying okay and so this is a it's a folk 245 00:12:03,400 --> 00:11:59,449 tradition and you know the traditional 246 00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:03,410 ones are these paintings but what's 247 00:12:08,199 --> 00:12:05,600 happening in the digital world is that 248 00:12:10,930 --> 00:12:08,209 that exact same phenomena is happening 249 00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:10,940 but with Photoshop so that's really 250 00:12:15,220 --> 00:12:13,040 funny yeah and people will take a 251 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:15,230 pre-existing you know image of a Grim 252 00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:18,250 Reaper a lot of the Santa Marta stuff is 253 00:12:25,569 --> 00:12:21,920 just reused images from heavy metal and 254 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:25,579 stock Grim Reaper's Wow and that is 255 00:12:32,139 --> 00:12:29,930 metal it's almost folkloric it's the 256 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:32,149 temples down in Mexico City a lot of 257 00:12:36,819 --> 00:12:34,130 them have just straight-up heavy metal 258 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:36,829 images that are this iconographic and 259 00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:38,569 it's just because that you know it comes 260 00:12:41,710 --> 00:12:39,920 out of a street culture where they don't 261 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:41,720 have money to buy an icon so what do you 262 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:43,250 do cut out a picture of the Grim Reaper 263 00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:44,810 from wherever you can get it put that on 264 00:12:49,179 --> 00:12:46,160 your altar and you know you're good to 265 00:12:50,319 --> 00:12:49,189 go and then digital what's happening is 266 00:12:51,579 --> 00:12:50,329 they're doing the same thing well 267 00:12:54,819 --> 00:12:51,589 they'll just take a picture of a Grim 268 00:12:57,460 --> 00:12:54,829 Reaper though cut a picture of you know 269 00:12:58,960 --> 00:12:57,470 whoever was blessed or on the negative 270 00:13:01,090 --> 00:12:58,970 end I guess there's probably people do 271 00:13:03,370 --> 00:13:01,100 it to harm people but most of what we've 272 00:13:05,889 --> 00:13:03,380 seen the public tradition is the the 273 00:13:07,569 --> 00:13:05,899 blessings and the thanking so they'll 274 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:07,579 take a picture of you know whoever was 275 00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:09,769 healed or blast or who got something 276 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:12,110 they think from Santa Marta and then 277 00:13:16,269 --> 00:13:13,970 they'll do this Photoshop collage with 278 00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:16,279 you know all these different elements 279 00:13:19,710 --> 00:13:18,240 and it looks like something 280 00:13:21,660 --> 00:13:19,720 [Music] 281 00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:21,670 it looks like a church bullet and I mean 282 00:13:27,150 --> 00:13:23,560 they're not like they're not there's no 283 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:27,160 real artistry to it it's very raw but 284 00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:28,930 it's the exact same tradition as the 285 00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:32,230 retablo when you're looking at it though 286 00:13:36,540 --> 00:13:34,270 you just see a bad photoshopped image 287 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:36,550 but if you realize what it is it's 288 00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:39,010 really powerful to see this expression 289 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:41,620 of faith coming out in a digital place 290 00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:43,570 you know it's a JPEG it's a meme 291 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:45,430 basically they're making you know faith 292 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:48,610 memes and but that's part of the 293 00:13:53,310 --> 00:13:51,490 tradition now dan it's really easy to 294 00:13:54,930 --> 00:13:53,320 look over it and to just you know say oh 295 00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:54,940 that's a meme or that's something but 296 00:13:58,590 --> 00:13:56,560 this is actually these are the the 297 00:14:02,190 --> 00:13:58,600 images that are coming out and you know 298 00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:02,200 people treat these as you know religious 299 00:14:08,250 --> 00:14:05,230 iconography David I have a couple of 300 00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:08,260 things to add this is for Shahir um 301 00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:11,950 first of all what a terrible loss of the 302 00:14:19,770 --> 00:14:15,670 morbid anatomy Museum and that is where 303 00:14:24,060 --> 00:14:19,780 I first heard about you because of 304 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:24,070 Andrew chestnut and so I associated you 305 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:26,890 with that organization for a while in my 306 00:14:34,050 --> 00:14:30,910 mind I also didn't mention in my intro 307 00:14:38,450 --> 00:14:34,060 and bad on me that you are a wonderful 308 00:14:42,210 --> 00:14:38,460 artist that you create images mostly 309 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:42,220 colored drawings if I'm not I believe 310 00:14:48,750 --> 00:14:45,810 I'm correct and they are reminiscent of 311 00:14:51,390 --> 00:14:48,760 Caribbean art to me in any case and you 312 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:51,400 also collect or are very involved with 313 00:14:57,060 --> 00:14:54,510 the art and artists of Haiti are you not 314 00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:57,070 yeah it's the Haiti things interesting 315 00:15:01,410 --> 00:14:59,440 that came out of again the the the Santa 316 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:01,420 Marta some of the methodology I guess 317 00:15:06,060 --> 00:15:02,950 that Andrew and I have developed with 318 00:15:09,090 --> 00:15:06,070 the Santa Marta research I don't know 319 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:09,100 where I ran across this this movement of 320 00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:11,290 artists in Haiti but there's this 321 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:14,680 incredible movement coming out of 322 00:15:19,980 --> 00:15:17,610 port-au-prince where these guys are 323 00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:19,990 basically they're running these kind of 324 00:15:25,260 --> 00:15:23,860 ad-hoc art schools down there in it's 325 00:15:26,730 --> 00:15:25,270 the the district that they're in the 326 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:26,740 street that they're in is traditionally 327 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:30,910 an Arts District but you know they're 328 00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:32,680 doing these amazing paintings on 329 00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:36,399 bored and stuff and there they're 330 00:15:43,019 --> 00:15:39,790 pulling from there you know the the 331 00:15:45,389 --> 00:15:43,029 Haitian Vodou tradition but they're 332 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:45,399 doing it in a way that I don't think 333 00:15:50,699 --> 00:15:48,730 would be recognizable to a lot of people 334 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:50,709 coming to voodoo in the states you know 335 00:15:54,119 --> 00:15:52,689 people that are looking for a specific 336 00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:54,129 thing because they're doing it from the 337 00:15:58,439 --> 00:15:56,800 actual living tradition and so it 338 00:16:01,230 --> 00:15:58,449 doesn't necessarily look like what you'd 339 00:16:02,819 --> 00:16:01,240 expect but it is vibrant amazing things 340 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:02,829 and they're just churning this stuff out 341 00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:05,410 and what really struck me about it was 342 00:16:09,869 --> 00:16:07,569 you know this is online you get there on 343 00:16:13,049 --> 00:16:09,879 Facebook at one of the guys is Leslie 344 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:13,059 pierre-paul runs the new vision art 345 00:16:19,710 --> 00:16:17,410 school in port-au-prince but they it's 346 00:16:21,509 --> 00:16:19,720 there's so much art being developed and 347 00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:21,519 nobody was really talking about it in 348 00:16:26,220 --> 00:16:24,160 writing you know kind of in the morbid 349 00:16:27,689 --> 00:16:26,230 anatomy scene and a lot of those folks 350 00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:27,699 they're really interested in the 351 00:16:33,179 --> 00:16:28,990 vernacular arts and are really 352 00:16:34,439 --> 00:16:33,189 interested in religious art but I what I 353 00:16:35,879 --> 00:16:34,449 noticed what they hate you thing was 354 00:16:38,059 --> 00:16:35,889 here's a living tradition with these 355 00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:38,069 people putting this art out there 356 00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:40,240 communicating on Facebook and nobody was 357 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:45,040 talking about him so my friend of mine 358 00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:48,730 Craig Williams he's a he's a writer and 359 00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:51,160 an IR about a practitioner down in 360 00:16:55,570 --> 00:16:53,110 Austin Texas he's got a book coming out 361 00:16:57,079 --> 00:16:55,580 that actually deals with his own 362 00:17:00,780 --> 00:16:57,089 [Music] 363 00:17:04,130 --> 00:17:00,790 relationship with a strain of Voodoo 364 00:17:06,210 --> 00:17:04,140 that actually comes out of Chicago and 365 00:17:07,919 --> 00:17:06,220 yeah I was talking to Craig and we were 366 00:17:12,029 --> 00:17:07,929 both just loving this art that was 367 00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:12,039 coming out and and I was like whoa you 368 00:17:15,659 --> 00:17:13,600 know Craig didn't want any money from 369 00:17:17,069 --> 00:17:15,669 his book that's being published so he 370 00:17:18,389 --> 00:17:17,079 had what he had done with this previous 371 00:17:19,980 --> 00:17:18,399 book was he had just given that back to 372 00:17:21,149 --> 00:17:19,990 the publisher and said you know do 373 00:17:23,220 --> 00:17:21,159 whatever you're gonna do with it make 374 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:23,230 the book better so this time around I 375 00:17:29,279 --> 00:17:26,529 was like well what if what if you 376 00:17:32,130 --> 00:17:29,289 donated that to the school you know what 377 00:17:34,169 --> 00:17:32,140 if they you donated your proceeds in 86 378 00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:34,179 collinearity yes yes well maybe the new 379 00:17:40,529 --> 00:17:38,470 vision arts school so he agreed to that 380 00:17:43,049 --> 00:17:40,539 and so it's it's really been an 381 00:17:45,390 --> 00:17:43,059 interesting thing of taking this work 382 00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:45,400 which is a contemporary look at 383 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:48,720 kind of a reworking revision 384 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:51,490 some of these traditions and actually 385 00:17:57,270 --> 00:17:55,450 have that contact with Haiti and to to 386 00:17:59,880 --> 00:17:57,280 be talking to them and that I mean it's 387 00:18:01,830 --> 00:17:59,890 it's just it really struck me that they 388 00:18:03,510 --> 00:18:01,840 weren't getting the attention I was 389 00:18:05,670 --> 00:18:03,520 surprised I was just surprised at the 390 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:05,680 way the kind of media networks work it 391 00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:08,170 is interesting you know and they've got 392 00:18:14,190 --> 00:18:10,240 support from you know artists and 393 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:14,200 there's a lady in Chicago that is 394 00:18:17,070 --> 00:18:15,730 featuring some of their work at the 395 00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:17,080 gallery there's an Australian artist 396 00:18:19,890 --> 00:18:18,400 that's helped them out and I think 397 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:19,900 there's some arts journals in France 398 00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:23,650 that have focused on him but it's just 399 00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:27,160 it was really fascinating to me to see 400 00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:29,200 how how accessible it was and how it 401 00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:31,720 wasn't being accessed so right now one 402 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:33,370 of the I've just been posting more about 403 00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:35,170 it to try to get similar folks to look 404 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:36,700 at it and to pay attention to what 405 00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,530 they're doing because it's yeah you know 406 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:40,240 at the very least it's it's great that 407 00:18:43,340 --> 00:18:42,040 they're they're taking these and one of 408 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:43,350 the things to you I mean when you see it 409 00:18:47,370 --> 00:18:46,210 you see these pictures of these kids and 410 00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:47,380 I mean these are some of the most 411 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:49,840 haunted looks on these kids faces and 412 00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:51,490 the stuff that they're painting is 413 00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:54,400 pretty harrowing a lot of times and I 414 00:18:58,260 --> 00:18:55,600 mean these are kids that went through 415 00:19:00,090 --> 00:18:58,270 just the devastation in Haiti and then 416 00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:00,100 the one of the things we found out and 417 00:19:02,970 --> 00:19:01,420 trying to figure out how to get the 418 00:19:05,580 --> 00:19:02,980 proceeds from the book down there 419 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:05,590 there's no way it's really difficult to 420 00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:08,650 get money to Haiti this you know yeah 421 00:19:12,420 --> 00:19:10,180 the banks it's all the banking things 422 00:19:14,010 --> 00:19:12,430 all weird it's it's it actually takes a 423 00:19:16,530 --> 00:19:14,020 probably can't just you know send a 424 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:16,540 cheque down there or something it's got 425 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:18,310 to be like money Eve money orders and 426 00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:21,250 it's just pretty complex so well when 427 00:19:25,380 --> 00:19:23,260 you speak folklore you know I'm sure 428 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:25,390 you've heard of Campbell's hero of a 429 00:19:30,780 --> 00:19:27,910 thousand faces and it's interesting that 430 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:30,790 you had an oral philosophical ossifer 431 00:19:36,270 --> 00:19:33,970 and as a professor because most of this 432 00:19:39,450 --> 00:19:36,280 is just sort of reflection of the human 433 00:19:41,850 --> 00:19:39,460 psyche and of course in Haiti they've 434 00:19:44,790 --> 00:19:41,860 been through a lot of bruising to their 435 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:44,800 psyches so we say do they have a deity 436 00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:46,510 or do they have someone that they look 437 00:19:53,130 --> 00:19:49,630 to or a personage or something of that 438 00:19:55,380 --> 00:19:53,140 nature you know the Savior or there's a 439 00:19:57,180 --> 00:19:55,390 lot of bad things yeah yeah that's 440 00:20:00,490 --> 00:19:57,190 that's kind of the interesting thing is 441 00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:00,500 that you know Voodoo's 442 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:04,190 a monotheistic religion you know despite 443 00:20:08,260 --> 00:20:06,170 how it's not actually I don't know too 444 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:08,270 much about it you know the usual stuff 445 00:20:13,030 --> 00:20:11,090 you see on TV with the diamonds and all 446 00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:13,040 but past that no I'm sorry I be I'm 447 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:16,240 absolutely confessed by totally nerds 448 00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:19,040 they have they have it's a really 449 00:20:24,790 --> 00:20:23,120 complex monotheistic polytheism so that 450 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:24,800 the African traditions usually point 451 00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:31,310 back to kind of a figure like a Godhead 452 00:20:36,850 --> 00:20:33,830 that is the God that created everything 453 00:20:39,460 --> 00:20:36,860 and what Vudu actually need like the the 454 00:20:43,030 --> 00:20:39,470 word that we get Vudu out of actually 455 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:43,040 means power so what these lower the the 456 00:20:48,850 --> 00:20:45,890 spirits of Vudu are the powers that the 457 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:48,860 Creator puts in place so that the world 458 00:20:53,170 --> 00:20:51,050 moves so you have all these different 459 00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:53,180 powers that interact and then depending 460 00:20:57,460 --> 00:20:56,240 on you know and there's a it it gets 461 00:20:59,950 --> 00:20:57,470 complex because the other thing is 462 00:21:01,810 --> 00:20:59,960 different houses so they don't have 463 00:21:03,490 --> 00:21:01,820 churches they don't have denominations 464 00:21:07,450 --> 00:21:03,500 but you have as a house and a house is 465 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:07,460 led by you know a central community 466 00:21:12,010 --> 00:21:10,610 leader that leads the house and that so 467 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:12,020 beliefs and that kind of thing can 468 00:21:17,050 --> 00:21:15,110 change but you know the the 469 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:17,060 practitioners would be ridden by a 470 00:21:21,850 --> 00:21:19,610 specific power and that power would be 471 00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:21,860 who they would work through to get to 472 00:21:29,290 --> 00:21:25,310 the higher power um it's pretty complex 473 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:29,300 so one of the things that one of the 474 00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:31,370 legendary aspects of Hades so this is 475 00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:33,740 the the you hear it come out and like 476 00:21:37,330 --> 00:21:35,630 Pat Robertson on the 700 club when he 477 00:21:39,820 --> 00:21:37,340 says that Haiti made a deal with the 478 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:39,830 devil and so they're you know now cursed 479 00:21:46,050 --> 00:21:41,930 and that comes out of the Haitian 480 00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:46,060 Revolution saw the development of a very 481 00:21:55,780 --> 00:21:51,070 kind of violent style of transpossession 482 00:21:58,540 --> 00:21:55,790 that it gets a lot darker and that leads 483 00:21:59,890 --> 00:21:58,550 into one of the schools is the the Pedro 484 00:22:01,900 --> 00:21:59,900 school that works with it and it's a 485 00:22:04,990 --> 00:22:01,910 school that's very hot they would say so 486 00:22:06,460 --> 00:22:05,000 it's a lot of fire and gunpowder and 487 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:06,470 that kind of stuff during the rituals 488 00:22:13,330 --> 00:22:11,330 but are you familiar with the concept of 489 00:22:17,259 --> 00:22:13,340 the zombie 490 00:22:19,899 --> 00:22:17,269 as it applies to Haiti there was a book 491 00:22:23,049 --> 00:22:19,909 that was written I would say about 20 492 00:22:25,810 --> 00:22:23,059 years ago by an American or European 493 00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:25,820 fellow who was down there and researched 494 00:22:33,129 --> 00:22:30,110 it and found that the people were in 495 00:22:37,259 --> 00:22:33,139 fact they weren't raised from the dead 496 00:22:41,889 --> 00:22:37,269 but they had had taken a chemical 497 00:22:46,330 --> 00:22:41,899 combination which involved some fish and 498 00:22:48,009 --> 00:22:46,340 other things that caused them I'm trying 499 00:22:50,049 --> 00:22:48,019 to think of the kind of fish it is do 500 00:22:50,980 --> 00:22:50,059 you know what I'm speaking of there it's 501 00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:50,990 a pufferfish 502 00:22:56,980 --> 00:22:53,870 and there's some toad toxin in there too 503 00:22:59,889 --> 00:22:56,990 and yeah that's Wade Davies yes yes 504 00:23:02,320 --> 00:22:59,899 that's what is rainbow and serpent in 505 00:23:04,509 --> 00:23:02,330 the rainbow and John Carpenter did a 506 00:23:07,899 --> 00:23:04,519 movie about it as well I didn't say that 507 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:07,909 I missed that one it's completely but 508 00:23:20,369 --> 00:23:14,210 it's a good we have a we have a question 509 00:23:23,230 --> 00:23:20,379 from one of our listeners will I has 510 00:23:25,950 --> 00:23:23,240 contacted me and asked me knowing that 511 00:23:28,899 --> 00:23:25,960 you were coming on for you to give a 512 00:23:30,909 --> 00:23:28,909 layman's description of two different 513 00:23:33,249 --> 00:23:30,919 things and he felt that you might be 514 00:23:36,210 --> 00:23:33,259 just the person who would be able to 515 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:36,220 enunciate this clearly for him a 516 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:40,610 definition of Satanism and a definition 517 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:43,370 of Santa Muerte and when I tried to 518 00:23:48,279 --> 00:23:46,250 explain it it always became like well 519 00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:48,289 it's a bunch of different things and he 520 00:23:54,940 --> 00:23:51,320 was not satisfied with that sort of 521 00:23:57,999 --> 00:23:54,950 answer so maybe you can speak to that 522 00:24:00,789 --> 00:23:58,009 question of will a definition of 523 00:24:04,779 --> 00:24:00,799 Satanism and a definition of Santa 524 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:04,789 Muerte well I think the I think when 525 00:24:10,539 --> 00:24:07,250 that question comes up the problem that 526 00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:10,549 people have with Satanism in particulars 527 00:24:13,710 --> 00:24:12,470 you've got the Church of Satan which is 528 00:24:18,009 --> 00:24:13,720 Anton LaVey 529 00:24:19,749 --> 00:24:18,019 and his organization then you've got the 530 00:24:23,139 --> 00:24:19,759 temple of set which comes out of that 531 00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:23,149 which is Michael Akina aquino which is 532 00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:26,080 different - and then 533 00:24:32,130 --> 00:24:29,350 kind of the pop version of what people 534 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:32,140 think of as Satanism through kind of the 535 00:24:40,409 --> 00:24:36,730 evangelical satanic panic era which is 536 00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:40,419 you know kind of like a ritual sacrifice 537 00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:44,320 of babies called kind of thing and I 538 00:24:48,330 --> 00:24:45,820 think you know I honestly I think your 539 00:24:49,919 --> 00:24:48,340 answer was was right and that it's it's 540 00:24:52,830 --> 00:24:49,929 a bunch of different things depending on 541 00:24:55,169 --> 00:24:52,840 who's saying it you know laveyan 542 00:24:59,310 --> 00:24:55,179 satanism is completely different than 543 00:25:01,529 --> 00:24:59,320 the temple upset folks and what I've 544 00:25:06,629 --> 00:25:01,539 found through the Santa Marta research 545 00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:06,639 is that what in Latin America is called 546 00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:09,760 narco satanic Oh which is kind of closer 547 00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:12,220 to what the Satanic panic fears would be 548 00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:15,279 is kind of scoffed by a lot of folks in 549 00:25:20,970 --> 00:25:18,460 the u.s. because of some of the findings 550 00:25:24,259 --> 00:25:20,980 by the FBI that the Satanic panic wasn't 551 00:25:27,899 --> 00:25:24,269 real in that but it when it comes to the 552 00:25:29,549 --> 00:25:27,909 cartels in that you actually have what 553 00:25:31,980 --> 00:25:29,559 people would consider is Satanism we've 554 00:25:36,330 --> 00:25:31,990 got human sacrifice you've got a lot of 555 00:25:40,139 --> 00:25:36,340 really nasty behaviors being tied to 556 00:25:41,370 --> 00:25:40,149 that so it's hard but Satan is it's a 557 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:41,380 hard thing I think most of the people 558 00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:43,330 who are public about it who would walk 559 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:44,950 around claiming themselves to be satanic 560 00:25:50,580 --> 00:25:47,529 would probably it would be more of a Ayn 561 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:50,590 Randian philosophy kind of individualist 562 00:25:56,460 --> 00:25:54,730 philosophy huh so that's that wilt yeah 563 00:25:58,590 --> 00:25:56,470 you know and that Crowley wasn't a 564 00:25:59,909 --> 00:25:58,600 Satanist no you know that's but that I 565 00:26:01,950 --> 00:25:59,919 think that I think you're right that 566 00:26:04,289 --> 00:26:01,960 that attitude would definitely you know 567 00:26:06,750 --> 00:26:04,299 they would they would put that in a more 568 00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:06,760 of like I'm gonna do it because if I 569 00:26:11,190 --> 00:26:08,590 want to I'll do it you know like they 570 00:26:13,409 --> 00:26:11,200 don't but there's always the law of 571 00:26:15,539 --> 00:26:13,419 three times what you do comes back to 572 00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:15,549 you three times right they don't believe 573 00:26:19,919 --> 00:26:17,769 in that I think yeah they don't there's 574 00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:19,929 none of that there's just kind it's very 575 00:26:26,909 --> 00:26:23,350 it's a very cold self oriented belief 576 00:26:30,629 --> 00:26:26,919 system I think a lot of people who grew 577 00:26:34,010 --> 00:26:30,639 up you know had their teenager hood in 578 00:26:37,470 --> 00:26:34,020 let's say the 70s in the 80s had 579 00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:37,480 listened to a lot of things like heavy 580 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:38,390 metal 581 00:26:45,970 --> 00:26:43,010 and other rock things that were going on 582 00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:45,980 songs like I am the God of hellfire and 583 00:26:53,380 --> 00:26:50,750 I bring you fire you know yeah yeah and 584 00:26:57,220 --> 00:26:53,390 I think that's a lot of that is a little 585 00:26:59,860 --> 00:26:57,230 bit more of a rebellion against um what 586 00:27:02,590 --> 00:26:59,870 the teenagers may have seen as an 587 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:02,600 oppressive Christian culture yeah 588 00:27:06,580 --> 00:27:03,290 exactly 589 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:06,590 and I think somebody who's writing about 590 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:08,450 this right now actually like like 591 00:27:15,780 --> 00:27:12,650 immediately is Mitch Horowitz who wrote 592 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:15,790 a cult America and has done a lot of 593 00:27:22,420 --> 00:27:18,530 stuff with new thought and positive 594 00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:22,430 thinking and he wrote one simple idea is 595 00:27:25,950 --> 00:27:24,080 I think his book on New Thought positive 596 00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:25,960 thinking but he's been writing a lot of 597 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:30,430 Satanism at the moment in that sense of 598 00:27:36,190 --> 00:27:33,890 you know some scholars would consider 599 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:36,200 William Blake a Satanist in the sense 600 00:27:44,020 --> 00:27:39,290 that this kind of adversarial figure 601 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:44,030 that is not the sort of a not there's a 602 00:27:48,670 --> 00:27:47,210 gnostic Satanism which is and I think 603 00:27:51,220 --> 00:27:48,680 that's where like a lot of people start 604 00:27:53,140 --> 00:27:51,230 to defend Satanism through this concept 605 00:27:56,110 --> 00:27:53,150 of a gnostic Satanism where it's more 606 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:56,120 that you're fighting a Demiurge or 607 00:28:00,010 --> 00:27:57,530 something you know that the world is 608 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:00,020 wrong and all those things that appear 609 00:28:04,690 --> 00:28:01,730 good are not good because they're part 610 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:04,700 of a control system you know and I think 611 00:28:08,710 --> 00:28:06,770 when people talk about that I think that 612 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:08,720 that probably follows along the lines of 613 00:28:15,910 --> 00:28:11,330 what you're describing it's also mixed 614 00:28:20,670 --> 00:28:15,920 up in the past between the idea of a 615 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:20,680 devil like Satan and a fallen angel like 616 00:28:25,330 --> 00:28:23,210 Lucifer or I don't always Baphomet a 617 00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:25,340 fallen angel - I'm not sure about that 618 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:28,640 but then there's the Horned God gods of 619 00:28:37,510 --> 00:28:33,050 of the European Mediterranean culture 620 00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:37,520 and they sort of feed into the idea of 621 00:28:44,020 --> 00:28:41,180 Satanism - wouldn't you say yeah in in 622 00:28:52,110 --> 00:28:44,030 Christian mind it does in it's 623 00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:55,090 it gets I think it gets I think it got 624 00:29:04,450 --> 00:28:58,330 complicated probably in the 1800s when 625 00:29:07,950 --> 00:29:04,460 you had the the anti-masonic French 626 00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:07,960 satanism scare that AE weight the 627 00:29:12,730 --> 00:29:10,640 difficulty weight wrote a lot about and 628 00:29:15,990 --> 00:29:12,740 kind of debunked and looked at and 629 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:16,000 should buy it was false there's a lot of 630 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:17,930 it's interesting because today's 631 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:19,730 contemporary society especially in these 632 00:29:26,590 --> 00:29:23,410 areas the kind of like pop culture 633 00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:26,600 called sort of ideas a lot of it are 634 00:29:32,050 --> 00:29:30,110 weird holdovers from arguments that 635 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:32,060 happened hundreds of years ago so like 636 00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:35,330 the Illuminati thing you get the actual 637 00:29:39,010 --> 00:29:37,190 Illuminati philosophy is essentially 638 00:29:42,580 --> 00:29:39,020 republicanism it's a secular 639 00:29:45,070 --> 00:29:42,590 republicanism focused on science so if 640 00:29:46,690 --> 00:29:45,080 you look at their actual writing you 641 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:46,700 know the the white ops group or whatever 642 00:29:50,590 --> 00:29:49,130 you look at what happened in the United 643 00:29:52,270 --> 00:29:50,600 States and what we have is a government 644 00:29:54,850 --> 00:29:52,280 right now and it's like oh well we 645 00:29:55,810 --> 00:29:54,860 that's pretty much what we did you know 646 00:29:58,450 --> 00:29:55,820 and it's stuff that people would 647 00:30:00,130 --> 00:29:58,460 consider normal and weird if we didn't 648 00:30:02,860 --> 00:30:00,140 have it like separation of church and 649 00:30:04,450 --> 00:30:02,870 state that was an Illuminati idea you 650 00:30:06,730 --> 00:30:04,460 know but then we have this myth out and 651 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:06,740 it's Allah gize de loominatee that comes 652 00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:10,730 out in the media and you know I think 653 00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:12,830 Satanism kind of faces the same sort of 654 00:30:17,850 --> 00:30:14,720 thing there's it's interesting because 655 00:30:21,130 --> 00:30:17,860 with what with the Santa Muerte stuff 656 00:30:23,620 --> 00:30:21,140 you have this popular popular tradition 657 00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:23,630 in the devotional tradition where you 658 00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:26,000 know you can go to Botanica z-- and you 659 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:29,600 can get the Bible of Santa Muerte and 660 00:30:34,690 --> 00:30:32,450 it's a kind of like a chapbook or a moi 661 00:30:37,060 --> 00:30:34,700 that has rituals in it and how to set up 662 00:30:38,650 --> 00:30:37,070 your altar and stuff like that and 663 00:30:40,060 --> 00:30:38,660 there's a huge popular tradition that 664 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:40,070 circles around that kind of thing 665 00:30:44,380 --> 00:30:42,650 however there's the Santa Marta of the 666 00:30:47,380 --> 00:30:44,390 cartels which is a completely different 667 00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:47,390 thing the altars may look similar 668 00:30:51,550 --> 00:30:49,190 because they're buying you know the 669 00:30:54,730 --> 00:30:51,560 stuff off the shelf in the same way that 670 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:54,740 the the other devotees are but there's a 671 00:30:58,720 --> 00:30:57,170 whole different aspect to it and it's 672 00:31:01,680 --> 00:30:58,730 almost as if they're contacting a 673 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:01,690 different spirit with it 674 00:31:05,409 --> 00:31:04,610 I think that happens with Satanism too 675 00:31:07,659 --> 00:31:05,419 in terms of 676 00:31:09,999 --> 00:31:07,669 you know I think there are people out 677 00:31:13,779 --> 00:31:10,009 there who feel that they're in contact 678 00:31:15,369 --> 00:31:13,789 with something very dark and it's not I 679 00:31:17,109 --> 00:31:15,379 mean because you look at so like thus 680 00:31:20,949 --> 00:31:17,119 Linden's for me when I when I think 681 00:31:24,430 --> 00:31:20,959 about the what's the reality of Satanism 682 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:24,440 as people fear it I see something like 683 00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:26,570 the Slenderman murders in Wisconsin 684 00:31:29,619 --> 00:31:28,369 where you've got these girls who feel 685 00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:29,629 like they're in contact with the 686 00:31:34,779 --> 00:31:31,609 Slenderman and they have to do a ritual 687 00:31:36,609 --> 00:31:34,789 murder in order to appease him or become 688 00:31:40,539 --> 00:31:36,619 a part of his thing that's a very scary 689 00:31:40,989 --> 00:31:40,549 little hope of manifestation there isn't 690 00:31:44,079 --> 00:31:40,999 it 691 00:31:45,310 --> 00:31:44,089 wonder man yeah and you have that across 692 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:45,320 the running that's you see that in 693 00:31:49,239 --> 00:31:47,690 Mexico too where people you know there's 694 00:31:51,369 --> 00:31:49,249 there's new stories not the 695 00:31:53,649 --> 00:31:51,379 sensationalized ones but there's new 696 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:53,659 stories of folks that feel like they're 697 00:31:58,599 --> 00:31:56,570 in contact with Saint death and they 698 00:32:00,369 --> 00:31:58,609 need to do a sacrifice or there was one 699 00:32:04,269 --> 00:32:00,379 guy who needed felt he needed to be with 700 00:32:05,859 --> 00:32:04,279 her so he committed suicide and they 701 00:32:07,989 --> 00:32:05,869 have these then you know there's you 702 00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:07,999 know so is that person crazy or is that 703 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:10,070 just you know and on psychological 704 00:32:13,779 --> 00:32:11,809 issues it's the problem I think comes in 705 00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:13,789 and the fact that these things are often 706 00:32:20,979 --> 00:32:18,559 attended by this same kind of the same 707 00:32:23,859 --> 00:32:20,989 kind of communications that if they were 708 00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:23,869 positive we would be okay with saying 709 00:32:27,579 --> 00:32:25,700 they were psychic communications or the 710 00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:27,589 person was you know had a spirit of 711 00:32:34,569 --> 00:32:30,559 contact or something like that you know 712 00:32:37,389 --> 00:32:34,579 so it I think it there's you know dark 713 00:32:42,930 --> 00:32:37,399 forces I guess okay can you speak a 714 00:32:46,269 --> 00:32:42,940 little bit to the juxtaposition of the 715 00:32:49,269 --> 00:32:46,279 spiritism and the Virgin of Guadalupe 716 00:32:53,589 --> 00:32:49,279 and Santa Muerte like where they overlap 717 00:32:56,859 --> 00:32:53,599 and where they diverge yeah it's an 718 00:33:00,759 --> 00:32:56,869 interesting thing so the Santa Marta has 719 00:33:03,579 --> 00:33:00,769 come out as almost like a replacement of 720 00:33:08,649 --> 00:33:03,589 the Virgin Mary in an institutional 721 00:33:12,729 --> 00:33:08,659 sense so there's a good example is our 722 00:33:15,059 --> 00:33:12,739 Lee who is up in the Bronx no Queen 723 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:15,069 Queens I think she's up in Queens 724 00:33:23,550 --> 00:33:18,830 and she is a transsexual from Mexico 725 00:33:25,930 --> 00:33:23,560 who was rejected by the Catholic Church 726 00:33:27,910 --> 00:33:25,940 so she went into you know I mean 727 00:33:32,260 --> 00:33:27,920 essentially her her local parish priest 728 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:32,270 in Mexico was like you're an abomination 729 00:33:35,470 --> 00:33:34,250 and should never be in this church and 730 00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:35,480 should never have been born 731 00:33:41,230 --> 00:33:38,320 Oh God and so you know she ended up 732 00:33:42,850 --> 00:33:41,240 turning to Santa Muerte and at first she 733 00:33:44,260 --> 00:33:42,860 was scared by it but she had some 734 00:33:48,370 --> 00:33:44,270 visionary encounters and some 735 00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:48,380 experiences and that's become nice she 736 00:33:55,570 --> 00:33:51,910 now runs the Santa Marta International 737 00:33:57,700 --> 00:33:55,580 kind of outpost up in Queens and she had 738 00:34:01,210 --> 00:33:57,710 started it before she aligned with Santa 739 00:34:04,780 --> 00:34:01,220 Marta International but she she hosts a 740 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:04,790 yearly kind of party for Santa Marta and 741 00:34:13,570 --> 00:34:10,970 the community there but her rejection 742 00:34:15,490 --> 00:34:13,580 from the Catholic Church she still felt 743 00:34:17,650 --> 00:34:15,500 the faith in God and wanted to find 744 00:34:20,020 --> 00:34:17,660 another intermediary and Santa Marta 745 00:34:22,990 --> 00:34:20,030 stepped in and so that's a lot of times 746 00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:23,000 what devotees who were closer to the 747 00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:27,110 lapsed Catholic end of it or even they 748 00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:28,730 consider themselves good Catholics but 749 00:34:32,380 --> 00:34:30,169 what they'll say is you know they tried 750 00:34:34,330 --> 00:34:32,390 praying to the other saints they tried 751 00:34:36,669 --> 00:34:34,340 praying to the Virgin Mary it didn't 752 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:36,679 work and when they finally prayed to 753 00:34:39,630 --> 00:34:37,610 Saint death 754 00:34:43,659 --> 00:34:39,640 they got answers and they got a response 755 00:34:46,450 --> 00:34:43,669 or though you know have been contacted 756 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:46,460 in a dream or synchronicities will lead 757 00:34:52,630 --> 00:34:48,530 up to them you know kind of developing 758 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:52,640 this relationship so she's known as kind 759 00:34:58,990 --> 00:34:56,090 of a ubiquitous miracle worker and when 760 00:35:00,370 --> 00:34:59,000 people have yeah and then on the the 761 00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:00,380 darker end of things when you have a 762 00:35:07,330 --> 00:35:04,000 request that you know would not be a 763 00:35:11,230 --> 00:35:07,340 good task the Virgin Mary or one of the 764 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:11,240 Saints they go to Santa Muerte do that 765 00:35:21,850 --> 00:35:14,690 do they feel as though sent them where 766 00:35:23,860 --> 00:35:21,860 that exacts a a payment and that it 767 00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:23,870 depends you know and it's it's there's a 768 00:35:28,510 --> 00:35:26,000 it's a decentralized tradition so it's 769 00:35:31,010 --> 00:35:28,520 kind of how they learned about it how 770 00:35:34,430 --> 00:35:31,020 they felt about it 771 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:34,440 my experience with it is that whether or 772 00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:36,690 not you think you're gonna have a toll 773 00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:38,640 with it or that there's some kind of 774 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:42,510 price to it the actual encounter with 775 00:35:48,020 --> 00:35:45,090 the tradition and the tradition entering 776 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:48,030 your life is powerful enough that you're 777 00:35:50,810 --> 00:35:49,290 gonna feel that way no matter what 778 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:50,820 you're gonna kind of feel bound and 779 00:35:56,270 --> 00:35:52,970 careful with it 780 00:36:00,410 --> 00:35:56,280 it's it's a heavily you know I don't 781 00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:00,420 know if it's just the the way that it 782 00:36:04,730 --> 00:36:02,910 focuses coincidence or what but it's a 783 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:04,740 pretty invasive pretty intense 784 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:08,370 experience a friend of mine up in New 785 00:36:12,380 --> 00:36:08,910 York 786 00:36:15,380 --> 00:36:12,390 Eliot edge who we're friends on Facebook 787 00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:15,390 - hey oh yeah a shout-out to Eliot edge 788 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:20,280 yeah he he is a researcher as well and 789 00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:25,530 he called me one day and was like Dave I 790 00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:27,900 don't know what it did he he did reject 791 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:29,820 he thought I was just researching this 792 00:36:34,370 --> 00:36:31,770 thing because it was a cool topic to 793 00:36:38,270 --> 00:36:34,380 research and so he'd kind of ignored all 794 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:38,280 the Santa Muerte stuff and first for 795 00:36:42,260 --> 00:36:40,050 whatever reason he decided to look into 796 00:36:45,890 --> 00:36:42,270 it and was immediately struck with 797 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:45,900 feelings of presences in his room weird 798 00:36:52,130 --> 00:36:48,090 coincidences it kind of freaked him out 799 00:36:54,020 --> 00:36:52,140 and that's what I found is when people 800 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:54,030 you know we Andrew and I have gotten a 801 00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:56,250 lot of emails like I've been having this 802 00:37:00,860 --> 00:36:58,560 dream since I was a kid and then I saw 803 00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:00,870 Santa Marta and I realized that that was 804 00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:02,640 it what do I do to get in contact with 805 00:37:07,970 --> 00:37:05,940 or what's the right way to do it you 806 00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:07,980 know and it's just really interesting to 807 00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:10,110 see it kind of come into people's lives 808 00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:12,720 and I think it's just so immersive in it 809 00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:14,640 so it's also the iconography is really 810 00:37:18,830 --> 00:37:17,520 extreme it's like nothing you know 811 00:37:21,020 --> 00:37:18,840 people in the United States especially 812 00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:21,030 are not used to seeing images of death 813 00:37:27,980 --> 00:37:25,440 so just blatant and there's a lot of you 814 00:37:29,870 --> 00:37:27,990 know anecdotal stories about her as a 815 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:29,880 loving mother and a patroness and that 816 00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:31,650 and people get really into it in the 817 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:34,680 u.s. the idea that there's some kind of 818 00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:38,490 bargain is is less for the devotees in 819 00:37:44,349 --> 00:37:41,520 Mexico that's definitely a strong folks 820 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:44,359 are very careful 821 00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:50,010 comparing her to Kali and also looking 822 00:37:58,910 --> 00:37:55,230 at India where people dead bodies are 823 00:38:01,630 --> 00:37:58,920 seen frequently mm-hmm as opposed to 824 00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:01,640 let's say the United States and Canada 825 00:38:07,250 --> 00:38:04,680 and probably the Nordic countries in 826 00:38:09,260 --> 00:38:07,260 Europe and I'm saying probably because 827 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:09,270 I've never attended a Swedish funeral 828 00:38:18,140 --> 00:38:13,890 for instance you don't see a dead body 829 00:38:20,690 --> 00:38:18,150 much when I was a kid and all of my 830 00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:20,700 grandmother and grandfather's elderly 831 00:38:27,950 --> 00:38:23,569 relatives were dropping off like flies I 832 00:38:29,980 --> 00:38:27,960 went to a lot of funerals and you would 833 00:38:32,660 --> 00:38:29,990 always see the body it would be 834 00:38:36,770 --> 00:38:32,670 preserved but you know you would see it 835 00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:36,780 and it you know that would be talked 836 00:38:41,359 --> 00:38:39,359 about well this funeral home doesn't do 837 00:38:42,980 --> 00:38:41,369 such a good job and if you know you 838 00:38:44,750 --> 00:38:42,990 should use this other funeral home 839 00:38:47,569 --> 00:38:44,760 because the person looks like they did 840 00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:47,579 in life and so forth and so on kind of 841 00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:50,250 morbid stuff of that nature but lately 842 00:38:54,799 --> 00:38:52,079 when I've gone to funerals it's always 843 00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:54,809 been a closed casket if there is even a 844 00:38:59,150 --> 00:38:56,640 casket and it's not just a memorial 845 00:39:02,750 --> 00:38:59,160 service so we in the United States are 846 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:02,760 really insulated from death and and we 847 00:39:11,870 --> 00:39:08,730 can contrast that to excuse me the the 848 00:39:14,660 --> 00:39:11,880 santim where the tradition and the 849 00:39:18,799 --> 00:39:14,670 tradition of Kali and how would you say 850 00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:18,809 they might be related are they yeah it's 851 00:39:23,329 --> 00:39:21,510 interesting because I'm probably not in 852 00:39:25,220 --> 00:39:23,339 the ways that people would think you 853 00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:25,230 know there's a when Santa were to enter 854 00:39:33,010 --> 00:39:30,420 the the u.s. one of the first people to 855 00:39:36,770 --> 00:39:33,020 kind of bring it into English was 856 00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:36,780 Catherine Ironwood from lucky mojo on 857 00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:40,710 her message board and so it came in in 858 00:39:53,340 --> 00:39:46,760 the kind of who knew revival stuff and 859 00:39:55,540 --> 00:39:53,350 it was was heavily kind of pushed into 860 00:39:59,590 --> 00:39:55,550 [Music] 861 00:40:01,870 --> 00:39:59,600 I don't even know kind of a loose I 862 00:40:05,260 --> 00:40:01,880 don't want to say new-age but along 863 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:05,270 those lines of just kind of so Santa 864 00:40:08,650 --> 00:40:07,010 Marta will get called to goddess right 865 00:40:11,590 --> 00:40:08,660 and Santa Marta is absolutely not a 866 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:11,600 goddess it's a saint it's st. death and 867 00:40:18,250 --> 00:40:15,610 there's the heavy Catholic theological 868 00:40:21,070 --> 00:40:18,260 issues with Santa Marta being a saint 869 00:40:22,510 --> 00:40:21,080 but very much within that system of 870 00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:22,520 sainthood in that and then if you're 871 00:40:27,970 --> 00:40:24,110 gonna step outside of that within the 872 00:40:31,420 --> 00:40:27,980 Mexican tradition its death itself it's 873 00:40:34,450 --> 00:40:31,430 not really a goddess figure it literally 874 00:40:37,090 --> 00:40:34,460 is death it might be an angel of death 875 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:37,100 but it's it's a force it's not the way 876 00:40:41,970 --> 00:40:39,890 people think about gods and goddesses 877 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:41,980 and that kind of thing 878 00:40:49,210 --> 00:40:46,010 colles an incredibly incredibly complex 879 00:40:53,590 --> 00:40:49,220 tradition to that in the u.s. tantric 880 00:40:57,310 --> 00:40:53,600 traditions haven't really been shown in 881 00:40:59,620 --> 00:40:57,320 their death so you know the the Kali 882 00:41:04,210 --> 00:40:59,630 tradition you know maybe in a loose 883 00:41:09,730 --> 00:41:04,220 sense but Kali is not really related in 884 00:41:11,710 --> 00:41:09,740 the same ways to to the same kind of 885 00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:11,720 forces I would say that Yama might 886 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:13,310 actually be a closer one which is the 887 00:41:22,780 --> 00:41:20,570 god of death yeah you know in Kali it's 888 00:41:29,050 --> 00:41:22,790 interesting because so Santa wanted that 889 00:41:33,430 --> 00:41:29,060 comes out of a very street-level deep 890 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:33,440 kind of raw tradition if you think about 891 00:41:40,599 --> 00:41:37,330 one kind of morbid comparison would be 892 00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:40,609 there's there's a river in Mexico called 893 00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:42,710 the river of remedies which they 894 00:41:48,190 --> 00:41:45,790 regularly dredge for women's bodies oh 895 00:41:50,290 --> 00:41:48,200 and it's because those women were 896 00:41:51,970 --> 00:41:50,300 murdered and tossed in there and there's 897 00:41:53,890 --> 00:41:51,980 body parts that float in this river and 898 00:41:56,050 --> 00:41:53,900 so it's very gruesome so that's where 899 00:41:57,550 --> 00:41:56,060 Santa Muerta comes out of now in India 900 00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:57,560 right you've got the Ganges which has 901 00:42:02,470 --> 00:41:59,200 dead bodies as well but those are 902 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:02,480 ritualistically there so they're they're 903 00:42:06,940 --> 00:42:04,250 there for a reason and then you might 904 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:06,950 have the aghori who go and you know eat 905 00:42:12,570 --> 00:42:08,530 the flesh of the data and do 906 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:12,580 but it's all very aboveboard you know 907 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:14,170 what I mean it's it's those bodies if 908 00:42:20,670 --> 00:42:18,730 any ritually this just reflects like 909 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:20,680 what you said initially about voodoo 910 00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:23,050 like there's a monotheism and then 911 00:42:27,690 --> 00:42:25,510 there's polytheism and people feel out 912 00:42:29,580 --> 00:42:27,700 of control with their lives and crap 913 00:42:31,890 --> 00:42:29,590 happens and they have to blame or look 914 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:31,900 to someone to help and so they invent 915 00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:34,210 these saints and lesser figures because 916 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:36,070 they figure they can't go to the big boy 917 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:39,370 himself and I think that's reflected 918 00:42:42,780 --> 00:42:41,050 throughout society I mean even the 919 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:42,790 Romans used to have all those little 920 00:42:48,750 --> 00:42:44,890 household gods and goddesses and their 921 00:42:50,820 --> 00:42:48,760 little yes and you know you see oh so 922 00:42:52,380 --> 00:42:50,830 it's just human nature I think so 923 00:42:54,990 --> 00:42:52,390 wherever those humans you're gonna have 924 00:42:59,880 --> 00:42:55,000 this combination which you so succinctly 925 00:43:02,610 --> 00:42:59,890 put polytheistic monotheism yes and I 926 00:43:05,550 --> 00:43:02,620 think it satisfies a lot of people so 927 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:05,560 it's so much easier you know even this 928 00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:07,450 person at work was looking for a cell 929 00:43:12,090 --> 00:43:09,520 phone immediately everyone said saying 930 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:12,100 yes and you say yeah look around 931 00:43:17,930 --> 00:43:14,290 something's lost and can't be found I 932 00:43:20,340 --> 00:43:17,940 must be found excuse me but so you know 933 00:43:22,230 --> 00:43:20,350 and then you know you try to sell a 934 00:43:23,820 --> 00:43:22,240 house in New Jersey so you take st. 935 00:43:26,250 --> 00:43:23,830 Joseph's and burry him upside down 936 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:26,260 yes in the front yard and you know there 937 00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:27,970 are a lot of people I think it works and 938 00:43:31,970 --> 00:43:29,110 of course you do sell your house 939 00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:31,980 eventually and then they say see it was 940 00:43:37,470 --> 00:43:35,110 but I think it just reflects people in 941 00:43:39,390 --> 00:43:37,480 general and I'm sure there's people 942 00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:39,400 selling huts and Haiti that do the same 943 00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:42,910 thing i i particularly mentioned the 944 00:43:48,270 --> 00:43:45,760 indian tradition because of the concept 945 00:43:51,020 --> 00:43:48,280 not that Kali or yama was a direct 946 00:43:55,130 --> 00:43:51,030 reflection of santa Muerta but more that 947 00:43:57,330 --> 00:43:55,140 they are so a nerd to seeing dead bodies 948 00:44:01,650 --> 00:43:57,340 whether they've been floating in the 949 00:44:04,740 --> 00:44:01,660 Ganges or the river of remedies that we 950 00:44:07,050 --> 00:44:04,750 don't see here we just we are insulated 951 00:44:11,970 --> 00:44:07,060 and and maybe that's not so healthy we 952 00:44:15,060 --> 00:44:11,980 have the Hudson there's a Superfund in 953 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:15,070 Brooklyn oh yeah there is and New Jersey 954 00:44:20,730 --> 00:44:17,410 has the twelfth largest super funds in 955 00:44:22,020 --> 00:44:20,740 the country yeah yeah yeah and there's 956 00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:22,030 always Jimmy Hoffa 957 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:24,160 well look we're still looking for Jimmy 958 00:44:30,210 --> 00:44:27,850 Hoffa but yeah I think it's fast I just 959 00:44:32,580 --> 00:44:30,220 think it's terrific that you research 960 00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:32,590 all these various beliefs that are sort 961 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:35,200 of waffle under the one major heading 962 00:44:40,350 --> 00:44:37,570 and it's just fascinating how different 963 00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:40,360 people bring this belief to the fore and 964 00:44:45,150 --> 00:44:42,250 you know who they invented why they 965 00:44:47,850 --> 00:44:45,160 invented if they should invent and I 966 00:44:49,470 --> 00:44:47,860 think all of us feel even if we're not 967 00:44:51,620 --> 00:44:49,480 terribly religious feel a little 968 00:44:55,710 --> 00:44:51,630 comforting knowing somebody's out there 969 00:45:00,110 --> 00:44:55,720 right is it okay to kind of ask you 970 00:45:04,290 --> 00:45:00,120 because I know you have some thoughts of 971 00:45:07,230 --> 00:45:04,300 interest about the UFO phenomena and the 972 00:45:09,870 --> 00:45:07,240 derivation of it and how it relates to 973 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:09,880 some of these other folkloric traditions 974 00:45:16,530 --> 00:45:13,510 as espoused by Jacques Vallee yeah well 975 00:45:19,830 --> 00:45:16,540 that's another common thing like people 976 00:45:22,170 --> 00:45:19,840 start to look to the Stars and you know 977 00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:22,180 I mean it's seems to be almost every 978 00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:26,110 religion has a deity up high and the bad 979 00:45:33,690 --> 00:45:29,680 boys down below and uh pretty much 980 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:33,700 mother earth and father sky yeah and you 981 00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:36,450 know and of course you know UFOs are 982 00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:39,280 just like every most religions or just 983 00:45:44,250 --> 00:45:42,400 cover wide categories but I think to 984 00:45:46,470 --> 00:45:44,260 some extent it becomes a religion to 985 00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:46,480 some people oh yes you know it really 986 00:45:51,150 --> 00:45:48,910 does and they you know they look to the 987 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:51,160 stars for survival and I'm sure you've 988 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:52,690 heard of Sitchin who is really 989 00:45:59,130 --> 00:45:56,170 fascinating yes and I think a lot of his 990 00:46:02,250 --> 00:45:59,140 a lot of his stuff is gonna start coming 991 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:02,260 true fairly soon well they're saying 992 00:46:11,930 --> 00:46:07,570 today I read on a science website like a 993 00:46:15,060 --> 00:46:11,940 pop science website how some astronomers 994 00:46:18,660 --> 00:46:15,070 are considering that Pluto might be a 995 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:18,670 giant comet for instance I on the same 996 00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:21,010 website they had that octopi actually 997 00:46:27,540 --> 00:46:24,400 come from outer space that was yes just 998 00:46:29,700 --> 00:46:27,550 follow parts and the mushrooms the 999 00:46:30,060 --> 00:46:29,710 fungus of the impossible things but I'm 1000 00:46:32,820 --> 00:46:30,070 sorry 1001 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:32,830 yeah where we goin field you're very far 1002 00:46:40,190 --> 00:46:35,850 field so talk to us a little bit 1003 00:46:46,540 --> 00:46:40,200 if you wouldn't mind about your views on 1004 00:46:51,650 --> 00:46:46,550 on the nature of UFOs and the nature of 1005 00:46:55,150 --> 00:46:51,660 contactees experiencers and abductees so 1006 00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:55,160 that that actually comes out of the 1007 00:47:02,300 --> 00:46:58,170 Santa Marta stuff I had an interest in 1008 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:02,310 in UF ology was very kind of haphazard 1009 00:47:08,420 --> 00:47:06,570 and that since I was kid but I think 1010 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:08,430 doing the Santa Muerte research really 1011 00:47:12,170 --> 00:47:11,010 gave me some better ways of looking at 1012 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:12,180 it because one of the things I was 1013 00:47:17,150 --> 00:47:15,930 looking at is I think it's exactly the 1014 00:47:19,850 --> 00:47:17,160 kind of thing you're talking about Kate 1015 00:47:22,190 --> 00:47:19,860 where these people are having these 1016 00:47:23,810 --> 00:47:22,200 experiences and then there's these kind 1017 00:47:26,030 --> 00:47:23,820 of frameworks that they can fit those 1018 00:47:27,410 --> 00:47:26,040 experiences and and explain it and then 1019 00:47:28,910 --> 00:47:27,420 you get the third step where those 1020 00:47:31,220 --> 00:47:28,920 things start to develop in an 1021 00:47:32,810 --> 00:47:31,230 intermixing kind of pattern you know so 1022 00:47:35,420 --> 00:47:32,820 somebody will have a lucid dream about 1023 00:47:37,580 --> 00:47:35,430 Santa Marta then they'll encounter the 1024 00:47:39,290 --> 00:47:37,590 Inka diak about something that they 1025 00:47:40,670 --> 00:47:39,300 think will you know eventually look like 1026 00:47:41,060 --> 00:47:40,680 Santa where to when they see Santa 1027 00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:41,070 Muerte 1028 00:47:44,420 --> 00:47:43,380 and then they see the iconography and 1029 00:47:45,740 --> 00:47:44,430 then they start working with the 1030 00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:45,750 iconography they have these other 1031 00:47:50,210 --> 00:47:47,520 experiences that they explain through 1032 00:47:52,220 --> 00:47:50,220 that and I see the same you know you 1033 00:47:54,380 --> 00:47:52,230 were talking about the UFO phenomena is 1034 00:47:57,650 --> 00:47:54,390 wide-ranging and what we kind of lump 1035 00:48:01,610 --> 00:47:57,660 into UFO fits a huge category of 1036 00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:01,620 experiences and I think that same kind 1037 00:48:10,190 --> 00:48:05,250 of mechanisms in play you know I worked 1038 00:48:12,110 --> 00:48:10,200 at a prismatic food ministry when I was 1039 00:48:15,050 --> 00:48:12,120 doing a lot of when I was starting to do 1040 00:48:16,670 --> 00:48:15,060 more the writing about parapsychology 1041 00:48:18,770 --> 00:48:16,680 and that and one of the things I noticed 1042 00:48:21,650 --> 00:48:18,780 was that they would have experiences the 1043 00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:21,660 word straight out of the pair of 1044 00:48:26,330 --> 00:48:23,430 psychological textbooks whether it was a 1045 00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:26,340 precognitive dream or whatever but they 1046 00:48:31,970 --> 00:48:29,040 would explain it through their religious 1047 00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:31,980 background so same exact content for the 1048 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:34,230 experience totally different framework 1049 00:48:38,630 --> 00:48:36,330 for seeing why it happened what it did 1050 00:48:41,090 --> 00:48:38,640 end result usually the same if they 1051 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:41,100 listen to it you know whatever whether 1052 00:48:44,060 --> 00:48:42,810 or not they said it was in the religious 1053 00:48:46,610 --> 00:48:44,070 framework that experience would have 1054 00:48:49,030 --> 00:48:46,620 given them for knowledge of something or 1055 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:49,040 you know fortuitous thing happening 1056 00:48:53,590 --> 00:48:51,050 so it's been really interesting to kind 1057 00:48:55,420 --> 00:48:53,600 of come in and start looking at the UFO 1058 00:48:59,500 --> 00:48:55,430 topic especially after the New York 1059 00:49:02,200 --> 00:48:59,510 Times stuff the story broke and that 1060 00:49:03,730 --> 00:49:02,210 kind of reignited everything it's been 1061 00:49:05,650 --> 00:49:03,740 really interesting to look at because 1062 00:49:07,630 --> 00:49:05,660 one of the I think the difference with 1063 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:07,640 the UFO phenomena and this is something 1064 00:49:17,140 --> 00:49:11,090 that Diana pisanka brings up in her work 1065 00:49:18,910 --> 00:49:17,150 is that you have physical evidence that 1066 00:49:21,099 --> 00:49:18,920 goes along with this stuff that goes 1067 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:21,109 beyond what a lot of times you have in a 1068 00:49:26,470 --> 00:49:23,690 kind of spiritual experience so there's 1069 00:49:27,730 --> 00:49:26,480 a it's totally a different thing now the 1070 00:49:29,140 --> 00:49:27,740 interesting thing about the physical 1071 00:49:30,609 --> 00:49:29,150 evidence is that a lot of times it 1072 00:49:34,090 --> 00:49:30,619 doesn't quite make sense for what we 1073 00:49:36,550 --> 00:49:34,100 would expect to be there but that just 1074 00:49:39,550 --> 00:49:36,560 adds to the mystery you know but there's 1075 00:49:41,349 --> 00:49:39,560 definitely a similar pattern of people 1076 00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:41,359 there's an experience or level to this 1077 00:49:46,570 --> 00:49:43,310 stuff and then there's the frameworks 1078 00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:46,580 that we use to describe it you know the 1079 00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:48,230 only thing that sort of made me a little 1080 00:49:55,150 --> 00:49:52,400 nervous is John Podesta is very very 1081 00:49:56,980 --> 00:49:55,160 interested in UFO research and really is 1082 00:49:58,930 --> 00:49:56,990 quite knowledgeable about the subject 1083 00:50:01,960 --> 00:49:58,940 and the fact that he actually wrote the 1084 00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:01,970 foreword to change both oh yeah and the 1085 00:50:07,780 --> 00:50:05,510 fact that he was such a really trusted 1086 00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:07,790 adviser to Hillary Clinton you know you 1087 00:50:13,359 --> 00:50:10,310 started to almost mix religion and 1088 00:50:15,190 --> 00:50:13,369 politics there and it got me a little 1089 00:50:17,830 --> 00:50:15,200 nervous because I was thinking what does 1090 00:50:20,380 --> 00:50:17,840 this man know that he's he actually has 1091 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:20,390 said I mean it's not like he's hiding it 1092 00:50:26,380 --> 00:50:22,490 and people tend to put that down a 1093 00:50:28,690 --> 00:50:26,390 little so you know again it comes into 1094 00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:28,700 what you've been saying all along like 1095 00:50:34,420 --> 00:50:31,250 politics religion nails tend to blend 1096 00:50:37,900 --> 00:50:34,430 and you know I'm bring out in over 1097 00:50:40,090 --> 00:50:37,910 overarching culture oh yeah both Jimmy 1098 00:50:43,030 --> 00:50:40,100 Carter and Ronald Reagan claimed to have 1099 00:50:45,970 --> 00:50:43,040 seen some you know some unexplained 1100 00:50:47,380 --> 00:50:45,980 phenomena and the sky as well as I'm 1101 00:50:49,660 --> 00:50:47,390 trying to think of the gentleman's name 1102 00:50:52,570 --> 00:50:49,670 oh you got to help me here somebody excu 1103 00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:52,580 was his wife is on TV now he used to be 1104 00:51:00,340 --> 00:50:55,040 a congressperson or senator he was 1105 00:51:02,260 --> 00:51:00,350 running for oh I know that that guy I 1106 00:51:05,790 --> 00:51:02,270 can't thank you car going yeah 1107 00:51:09,250 --> 00:51:05,800 they used to make terrible fun of him so 1108 00:51:13,180 --> 00:51:09,260 did Jimmy Carter so well but he was like 1109 00:51:20,620 --> 00:51:13,190 so they made fun of him yeah they did I 1110 00:51:25,930 --> 00:51:20,630 think he was well we can't seriously so 1111 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:25,940 anyway um so with the what are you our 1112 00:51:32,470 --> 00:51:30,290 feelings about the the tic-tac video and 1113 00:51:35,110 --> 00:51:32,480 to the stars Academy and what do you 1114 00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:35,120 think is going on there I think it's I 1115 00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:37,250 think it's a great thing to kind of 1116 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:39,710 bring it's a good talking it's it's good 1117 00:51:43,210 --> 00:51:41,450 for bringing the subject back I think 1118 00:51:44,830 --> 00:51:43,220 one of the the interesting things that 1119 00:51:48,250 --> 00:51:44,840 it did and I kind of talked to Greg 1120 00:51:52,810 --> 00:51:48,260 Bishop about this when we were talking 1121 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:52,820 on his radio mysterioso show I think 1122 00:51:57,790 --> 00:51:54,890 that it brought the physical back into 1123 00:52:00,730 --> 00:51:57,800 it things have been really drifting into 1124 00:52:03,460 --> 00:52:00,740 kind of uh everything psychological or 1125 00:52:05,140 --> 00:52:03,470 it's you know the kind of the question 1126 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:05,150 of consciousness and and that kind of 1127 00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:08,810 stuff and I think with the tic-tac video 1128 00:52:15,060 --> 00:52:13,250 and the stuff that DeLong and some of 1129 00:52:17,950 --> 00:52:15,070 these other folks are bringing out is 1130 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:17,960 it's bringing back the question of like 1131 00:52:22,780 --> 00:52:20,210 no people are actually seeing things 1132 00:52:24,730 --> 00:52:22,790 like things objects you know and there's 1133 00:52:26,860 --> 00:52:24,740 there's an objective level to this that 1134 00:52:30,370 --> 00:52:26,870 gets ignored if you look at it only 1135 00:52:31,540 --> 00:52:30,380 psychologically you know and that that 1136 00:52:33,220 --> 00:52:31,550 to me was interesting because that's 1137 00:52:36,370 --> 00:52:33,230 kind of what kicked me to because I was 1138 00:52:39,940 --> 00:52:36,380 you know I've been looking at folklore 1139 00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:39,950 traditions and popular occultism and 1140 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:42,110 esoteric traditions and contemplative 1141 00:52:48,810 --> 00:52:44,410 traditions and things were getting very 1142 00:52:51,580 --> 00:52:48,820 mind based and beyond mind and stuff but 1143 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:51,590 that forced me to look back and go oh 1144 00:52:54,940 --> 00:52:53,090 wait a second there's actually there is 1145 00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:54,950 some weird stuff here that's not just 1146 00:52:59,800 --> 00:52:57,200 ideas or psychology or hallucinations 1147 00:53:00,760 --> 00:52:59,810 that are you know or even even a you 1148 00:53:02,500 --> 00:53:00,770 know if you're gonna say there's a 1149 00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:02,510 spirit contact element to it or 1150 00:53:06,580 --> 00:53:03,710 something like that but there's actually 1151 00:53:09,580 --> 00:53:06,590 these this physical no there's 1152 00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:09,590 definitely nuts and bolts yeah component 1153 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:11,570 to it absolutely and I think that 1154 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:13,730 complicates in a really powerful way 1155 00:53:19,210 --> 00:53:14,930 that 1156 00:53:21,220 --> 00:53:19,220 I think it's so it's such a glitch in 1157 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:21,230 the mind to try to fit all that together 1158 00:53:25,809 --> 00:53:23,930 that you know it's easy to shelve 1159 00:53:29,470 --> 00:53:25,819 until it's shoved at you by the New York 1160 00:53:31,329 --> 00:53:29,480 Times you know and so because it's it's 1161 00:53:34,210 --> 00:53:31,339 really heated up the conversation I mean 1162 00:53:35,559 --> 00:53:34,220 it's really interesting now to see you 1163 00:53:37,420 --> 00:53:35,569 know people getting more passionate 1164 00:53:41,019 --> 00:53:37,430 about it people getting more open about 1165 00:53:44,349 --> 00:53:41,029 it you know those things came out and 1166 00:53:47,260 --> 00:53:44,359 you had a bunch of different academics 1167 00:53:48,910 --> 00:53:47,270 coming out with their their stuff that 1168 00:53:51,039 --> 00:53:48,920 wouldn't really have been quite as 1169 00:53:54,910 --> 00:53:51,049 well-received if they had if that hadn't 1170 00:53:56,769 --> 00:53:54,920 happened you know I think it's 1171 00:54:01,630 --> 00:53:56,779 unfortunate that it's now getting bogged 1172 00:54:04,660 --> 00:54:01,640 down in the is this a PSYOP you know is 1173 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:04,670 this a manipulation because one of the 1174 00:54:09,730 --> 00:54:08,210 things one of the things that some of 1175 00:54:12,839 --> 00:54:09,740 the veterans in the field have pointed 1176 00:54:15,370 --> 00:54:12,849 out that whatever the whatever the 1177 00:54:20,019 --> 00:54:15,380 veracity of these particular cases are 1178 00:54:22,779 --> 00:54:20,029 it they're cookie cutter for you know 1179 00:54:26,470 --> 00:54:22,789 hundreds if not thousands of other you 1180 00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:26,480 know cases that are on the books with FA 1181 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:28,730 radar data and stuff like that I know 1182 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:30,890 Ted Rowe has you know he ran that 1183 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:33,170 organization for a long time that was 1184 00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:35,770 looking at the FAA stop and actually 1185 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:38,480 liaison with the FAA to take you know 1186 00:54:44,140 --> 00:54:41,450 some of these cases and that so you know 1187 00:54:45,849 --> 00:54:44,150 the information coming out whether these 1188 00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:45,859 particular cases or water are 1189 00:54:50,559 --> 00:54:47,930 manipulations that the data is 1190 00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:50,569 essentially the same as what comes out 1191 00:54:55,359 --> 00:54:52,730 in other instances and I found it was 1192 00:54:58,390 --> 00:54:55,369 really interesting I was reading about 1193 00:54:59,019 --> 00:54:58,400 the sky-quake things that are happening 1194 00:55:01,000 --> 00:54:59,029 aha 1195 00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:01,010 are those the the booms and that and 1196 00:55:06,970 --> 00:55:04,250 there was the idea when it was it was 1197 00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:06,980 brought up well maybe it's UFOs entering 1198 00:55:12,460 --> 00:55:09,680 the atmosphere right because the Nimitz 1199 00:55:13,839 --> 00:55:12,470 case the recent full write-up that they 1200 00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:13,849 released said that these things were 1201 00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:15,680 dropping from above sixty thousand feet 1202 00:55:19,870 --> 00:55:17,569 so the idea being that it was a sonic 1203 00:55:21,579 --> 00:55:19,880 boom but the information in those things 1204 00:55:24,010 --> 00:55:21,589 and the information in the previous 1205 00:55:25,390 --> 00:55:24,020 reports is that they don't make a sonic 1206 00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:25,400 boom and that's one of the interesting 1207 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:27,440 things about this stuff is that it moves 1208 00:55:29,940 --> 00:55:28,090 quickly 1209 00:55:31,980 --> 00:55:29,950 it can show up out of nowhere and 1210 00:55:33,390 --> 00:55:31,990 there's no sound there's no sonic boom 1211 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:33,400 there won't be a hum or something like 1212 00:55:37,980 --> 00:55:34,770 that but they're not making these booms 1213 00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:37,990 so you can take the data that's in these 1214 00:55:42,210 --> 00:55:40,240 these news clippings and you can look at 1215 00:55:44,610 --> 00:55:42,220 speculations and you can start to 1216 00:55:45,870 --> 00:55:44,620 compare yes and if theories about it you 1217 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:45,880 can go back and actually look at the 1218 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:47,530 real data you know I mean this stuff 1219 00:55:52,140 --> 00:55:49,330 that's been vetted and that are in these 1220 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:52,150 databases and that and start to make 1221 00:55:57,150 --> 00:55:54,490 those comparisons and it goes beyond you 1222 00:55:58,830 --> 00:55:57,160 know the political and the cultural and 1223 00:56:00,450 --> 00:55:58,840 you start to look at the experiences 1224 00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:00,460 themselves and you know the thing with 1225 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:02,170 the politicians like Reagan and that I 1226 00:56:07,170 --> 00:56:05,050 mean the level of you know I did music 1227 00:56:10,410 --> 00:56:07,180 journalism and I still sort of do music 1228 00:56:12,420 --> 00:56:10,420 journalism but the number of people that 1229 00:56:13,980 --> 00:56:12,430 I know who are experiences in the music 1230 00:56:15,630 --> 00:56:13,990 industry I know Grant Cameron just put 1231 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:15,640 out a book with it but anybody who's in 1232 00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:18,610 the music industry knows that it's a 1233 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:23,680 huge part of the performance arts is you 1234 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:25,770 know all sorts of strange experiences 1235 00:56:32,670 --> 00:56:28,330 and that's just embedded in the culture 1236 00:56:36,170 --> 00:56:32,680 the creative people seem to see I have 1237 00:56:40,380 --> 00:56:36,180 to be more the experiencers than the 1238 00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:40,390 nine-to-five insurance salesmen yeah and 1239 00:56:43,050 --> 00:56:41,530 they're you know it's interesting with 1240 00:56:45,420 --> 00:56:43,060 the nine-to-five insurance salesmen this 1241 00:56:47,070 --> 00:56:45,430 is something I found out with the doing 1242 00:56:49,140 --> 00:56:47,080 the charismatic food ministry thing 1243 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:49,150 those folks have experiences too they 1244 00:56:52,590 --> 00:56:50,530 just don't talk about them until they're 1245 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:52,600 a rehash or until they're you know in 1246 00:56:56,340 --> 00:56:54,850 private I mean it's in this would I 1247 00:56:57,990 --> 00:56:56,350 think that was one of the things that I 1248 00:56:59,550 --> 00:56:58,000 really liked about the fact that with 1249 00:57:01,470 --> 00:56:59,560 the New York Times and all the Politico 1250 00:57:04,710 --> 00:57:01,480 and Washington Post and all this is that 1251 00:57:07,470 --> 00:57:04,720 it's provided a forum for people to talk 1252 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:07,480 about it in a more open way you know I 1253 00:57:10,260 --> 00:57:08,890 don't think it provided answers and I 1254 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:10,270 think in some ways it may have confused 1255 00:57:16,260 --> 00:57:14,650 the issue in terms of the political 1256 00:57:19,020 --> 00:57:16,270 cultural end of it but you know in terms 1257 00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:19,030 of just people having experiences it's 1258 00:57:23,430 --> 00:57:20,710 really opened that up to people talking 1259 00:57:24,180 --> 00:57:23,440 about it supposed to be more stuff 1260 00:57:25,470 --> 00:57:24,190 coming out 1261 00:57:27,300 --> 00:57:25,480 yeah well note that that's where it 1262 00:57:30,810 --> 00:57:27,310 compares to religion again like there's 1263 00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:30,820 just enough evidence there we know it is 1264 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:33,730 not enough to prove it in a sense but if 1265 00:57:38,490 --> 00:57:36,490 you have faith it's there I'm gonna 1266 00:57:40,190 --> 00:57:38,500 throw another monkey wrench into their 1267 00:57:43,579 --> 00:57:40,200 home 1268 00:57:46,940 --> 00:57:43,589 as I am want to do and I'm going to 1269 00:57:48,890 --> 00:57:46,950 bring up the book camellia are you 1270 00:57:51,559 --> 00:57:48,900 familiar with the book Emilio 1271 00:57:55,069 --> 00:57:51,569 yeah I haven't read it I've seen it 1272 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:55,079 websi mentions of it references and I 1273 00:57:58,370 --> 00:57:56,730 saw I don't know what the author's name 1274 00:58:02,390 --> 00:57:58,380 is but I think I looked at his website 1275 00:58:04,670 --> 00:58:02,400 as well well there apparently is in that 1276 00:58:06,380 --> 00:58:04,680 book he claims in some way to be some 1277 00:58:10,670 --> 00:58:06,390 form of an insider I don't know the 1278 00:58:14,319 --> 00:58:10,680 entire story but he apparently says that 1279 00:58:19,549 --> 00:58:14,329 the technology has been discovered to 1280 00:58:23,359 --> 00:58:19,559 make a person invisible and that some 1281 00:58:26,329 --> 00:58:23,369 things happen where which appear to be 1282 00:58:30,349 --> 00:58:26,339 an invisible and invisible actor 1283 00:58:33,140 --> 00:58:30,359 involved and then we come into the all 1284 00:58:36,799 --> 00:58:33,150 the research done by David felides 1285 00:58:39,650 --> 00:58:36,809 polite ease which ever about the missing 1286 00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:39,660 for one one people going missing from 1287 00:58:45,859 --> 00:58:42,720 the national parks forests and other 1288 00:58:47,630 --> 00:58:45,869 places and how many missing people there 1289 00:58:51,519 --> 00:58:47,640 are in the United States that haven't 1290 00:58:54,319 --> 00:58:51,529 committed suicide or been the victim of 1291 00:58:58,700 --> 00:58:54,329 emotional squabbles or whatever like 1292 00:59:00,140 --> 00:58:58,710 that these people who who disappear 1293 00:59:02,900 --> 00:59:00,150 without a trace and then if they're 1294 00:59:05,420 --> 00:59:02,910 found they're found places where they 1295 00:59:08,569 --> 00:59:05,430 couldn't have possibly walked to like a 1296 00:59:13,370 --> 00:59:08,579 two-year-old with bare feet is found 15 1297 00:59:14,839 --> 00:59:13,380 miles and 5,000 feet up from where I'm 1298 00:59:17,150 --> 00:59:14,849 just saying I don't know if that's the 1299 00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:17,160 exact amount but yeah where they were 1300 00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:20,250 and then people are looking at this 1301 00:59:27,950 --> 00:59:24,660 Camellia thing as possibly being the 1302 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:27,960 reason or is it is it something else but 1303 00:59:34,220 --> 00:59:30,450 it's just it's just bringing this thing 1304 00:59:37,819 --> 00:59:34,230 kind of full circle into other 1305 00:59:39,650 --> 00:59:37,829 disciplines yeah that you know that I 1306 00:59:43,220 --> 00:59:39,660 haven't read that I'm curious about the 1307 00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:43,230 book I'm interested in it kind of scares 1308 00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:47,250 me but yeah I mean it's uh it's a thick 1309 00:59:51,089 --> 00:59:49,500 top and then the it was funny we went to 1310 00:59:54,979 --> 00:59:51,099 I went with 1311 00:59:57,650 --> 00:59:54,989 Joshua kuchen Anton banal to the 1312 01:00:00,239 --> 00:59:57,660 expedition Bigfoot here in Georgia and 1313 01:00:03,870 --> 01:00:00,249 we you know we're it's amazing the 1314 01:00:06,769 --> 01:00:03,880 amazing Museum and that but one of the 1315 01:00:08,819 --> 01:00:06,779 things that hit me was they have David 1316 01:00:10,739 --> 01:00:08,829 Pleiades or Pilate I don't know how to 1317 01:00:13,109 --> 01:00:10,749 pronounce his last name but they have 1318 01:00:15,059 --> 01:00:13,119 his books there and that's kind of part 1319 01:00:19,049 --> 01:00:15,069 of it and then they have this in the 1320 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:19,059 back of one of the exhibit rooms there's 1321 01:00:24,479 --> 01:00:22,930 all these missing people posters oh no 1322 01:00:26,039 --> 01:00:24,489 oh if they were local or not but it's 1323 01:00:28,380 --> 01:00:26,049 like right on the edge of this large 1324 01:00:32,239 --> 01:00:28,390 Forest Preserve in northern Georgia and 1325 01:00:37,049 --> 01:00:34,499 think about it like oh wow 1326 01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:37,059 you know and it's I was actually it's 1327 01:00:39,719 --> 01:00:38,170 funny that you brought this up because I 1328 01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:39,729 was thinking about this driving into the 1329 01:00:44,519 --> 01:00:42,880 office this morning you know people have 1330 01:00:46,769 --> 01:00:44,529 always been afraid of the forest and 1331 01:00:48,539 --> 01:00:46,779 we've kind of joked about it and has 1332 01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:48,549 kind of become like a like oh you know 1333 01:00:50,699 --> 01:00:50,079 that was the superstition like what if 1334 01:00:52,469 --> 01:00:50,709 it wasn't 1335 01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:52,479 yeah you know you're right above dead 1336 01:00:55,769 --> 01:00:54,160 you're really you're right about that 1337 01:00:57,779 --> 01:00:55,779 you know I mean there always was this 1338 01:00:59,519 --> 01:00:57,789 idea that you go out and you might and 1339 01:01:02,039 --> 01:00:59,529 there's you know the fairy lore in there 1340 01:01:03,630 --> 01:01:02,049 like do another when they come back some 1341 01:01:06,180 --> 01:01:03,640 don't come back you know some kind of 1342 01:01:08,189 --> 01:01:06,190 change some come back replaced you know 1343 01:01:09,930 --> 01:01:08,199 it's to sound a lot like the kind of 1344 01:01:14,579 --> 01:01:09,940 stuff that's in his books maybe not the 1345 01:01:16,170 --> 01:01:14,589 changeling replacement stuff but yeah I 1346 01:01:19,130 --> 01:01:16,180 don't know is it's really eerie and 1347 01:01:22,829 --> 01:01:19,140 interesting and I think you know I mean 1348 01:01:26,130 --> 01:01:22,839 one of the things with the the advanced 1349 01:01:30,449 --> 01:01:26,140 technology idea that always strikes me 1350 01:01:32,130 --> 01:01:30,459 is if you go to any of the aerospace 1351 01:01:33,599 --> 01:01:32,140 companies and you look at the best of 1352 01:01:36,180 --> 01:01:33,609 the best of the best like what they're 1353 01:01:37,499 --> 01:01:36,190 displaying like this is this is the best 1354 01:01:39,809 --> 01:01:37,509 of the best and you can assume that that 1355 01:01:42,209 --> 01:01:39,819 was the best you know that was like the 1356 01:01:44,579 --> 01:01:42,219 hidden technology I think there's like a 1357 01:01:47,430 --> 01:01:44,589 10 20 year like release gap or something 1358 01:01:49,199 --> 01:01:47,440 um the guys from skunk works have talked 1359 01:01:50,670 --> 01:01:49,209 about is like 10 10 years or something 1360 01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:50,680 so you can assume that that was what was 1361 01:01:54,329 --> 01:01:52,569 10 years ago even if you make the 1362 01:01:55,559 --> 01:01:54,339 technological leap 10 years into the 1363 01:01:57,539 --> 01:01:55,569 future from what they're displaying 1364 01:02:02,660 --> 01:01:57,549 today there's nothing that looks like 1365 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:02,670 any of the stuff that is described and 1366 01:02:06,210 --> 01:02:04,570 in the 1367 01:02:07,650 --> 01:02:06,220 a lot of the experiencer accounts and 1368 01:02:10,290 --> 01:02:07,660 then the other kind of question that I 1369 01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:10,300 would have is that you know none of its 1370 01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:12,130 been commercialized like we don't even 1371 01:02:15,180 --> 01:02:13,450 have close to anything that's 1372 01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:15,190 commercialized that looks like that and 1373 01:02:19,860 --> 01:02:16,720 that's where a lot of research and 1374 01:02:21,540 --> 01:02:19,870 development money comes in so you know I 1375 01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:21,550 know there's a lot of money lost and 1376 01:02:26,250 --> 01:02:24,370 that but there's something weird going 1377 01:02:28,260 --> 01:02:26,260 on that I don't think is is answered 1378 01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:28,270 easily you know the come out low things 1379 01:02:33,090 --> 01:02:30,970 interesting and it's even you know I 1380 01:02:35,810 --> 01:02:33,100 know Jeremy Korbel had actually brought 1381 01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:35,820 some of that up leading up to his 1382 01:02:41,310 --> 01:02:39,730 upcoming skinwalker ranch movie aha you 1383 01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:41,320 know be good but the funny thing is is 1384 01:02:50,130 --> 01:02:44,970 if you look at the researchers in that 1385 01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:50,140 they they have questions too you know so 1386 01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:52,480 even the even they're quiet even the 1387 01:02:56,130 --> 01:02:54,130 people that are looking at the stuff 1388 01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:56,140 that have been implicated in that you 1389 01:03:01,110 --> 01:02:58,720 know have questions like well if you 1390 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:01,120 experience this like when was it because 1391 01:03:05,250 --> 01:03:02,410 we don't know about that yeah it's just 1392 01:03:08,850 --> 01:03:05,260 there's a lot of I think the mystery 1393 01:03:10,890 --> 01:03:08,860 persists you know and you tied it in 1394 01:03:12,750 --> 01:03:10,900 with research to and Bigelow was the guy 1395 01:03:14,490 --> 01:03:12,760 who bought the skinwalker ranch so 1396 01:03:17,250 --> 01:03:14,500 something was going on there that he 1397 01:03:19,350 --> 01:03:17,260 wanted to look into yeah and well I mean 1398 01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:19,360 but the team that he assembled in that 1399 01:03:23,730 --> 01:03:21,490 you know it's very interesting you know 1400 01:03:25,830 --> 01:03:23,740 if there was you know it's a question of 1401 01:03:28,650 --> 01:03:25,840 how long did the history go back on that 1402 01:03:31,290 --> 01:03:28,660 property like with the experiences and I 1403 01:03:33,930 --> 01:03:31,300 think Chris O'Brien his research shows 1404 01:03:35,730 --> 01:03:33,940 that it did go back it may not have it 1405 01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:35,740 may not have been as cartoonish as it's 1406 01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:39,010 been portrayed going forward once it got 1407 01:03:43,980 --> 01:03:41,200 media once it bit kind of hit the media 1408 01:03:47,610 --> 01:03:43,990 and that but there has been that area is 1409 01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:47,620 chock-full of going you know going back 1410 01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:49,810 just people experiencing weird stuff do 1411 01:03:54,810 --> 01:03:52,000 you need a basin and the very word 1412 01:03:57,090 --> 01:03:54,820 skinwalker comes from the Native 1413 01:03:59,340 --> 01:03:57,100 American I guess it's the is it the 1414 01:04:03,120 --> 01:03:59,350 Navajo tradition the Apache turd I guess 1415 01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:03,130 it's a novel right it's never who are 1416 01:04:07,620 --> 01:04:04,690 Apache yeah it's the witchcraft 1417 01:04:09,390 --> 01:04:07,630 tradition you know the skinwalkers well 1418 01:04:13,020 --> 01:04:09,400 and what's interesting about that - you 1419 01:04:18,010 --> 01:04:13,030 brought up Wade Davis the skinwalkers 1420 01:04:20,300 --> 01:04:18,020 are a it's a witchcraft tradition in 1421 01:04:22,850 --> 01:04:20,310 that deals with shape shifting and 1422 01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:22,860 changing in that but what Wade Davies 1423 01:04:27,500 --> 01:04:24,690 actually faced when he went down to 1424 01:04:30,350 --> 01:04:27,510 Haiti were those so in traditional 1425 01:04:32,300 --> 01:04:30,360 societies you usually have an example of 1426 01:04:36,410 --> 01:04:32,310 what in Africa is called a Justice 1427 01:04:38,180 --> 01:04:36,420 Society and it's a masked society that 1428 01:04:41,510 --> 01:04:38,190 is essentially the secret police for the 1429 01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:41,520 community and it the traditions stretch 1430 01:04:46,340 --> 01:04:44,130 into Europe there's examples of it in 1431 01:04:47,900 --> 01:04:46,350 Africa there's examples of it throughout 1432 01:04:49,250 --> 01:04:47,910 the Caribbean there's examples of it 1433 01:04:51,950 --> 01:04:49,260 from the African influence but there's 1434 01:04:53,870 --> 01:04:51,960 also Native American on the East Coast 1435 01:04:57,500 --> 01:04:53,880 Native American side you've got the mask 1436 01:04:58,880 --> 01:04:57,510 societies that where the the masks and 1437 01:05:06,830 --> 01:04:58,890 that and then you've got the kachinas in 1438 01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:06,840 the southwest edition but these the the 1439 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:07,770 way that they've been kind of 1440 01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:10,170 popularized is this idea that they do a 1441 01:05:14,930 --> 01:05:13,050 ritual and masks but what usually it's 1442 01:05:19,310 --> 01:05:14,940 more of a trance possession kind of 1443 01:05:22,580 --> 01:05:19,320 situation similar to voodoo but where 1444 01:05:25,220 --> 01:05:22,590 the end of the trance possession is some 1445 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:25,230 sort of balance of justice in the 1446 01:05:30,530 --> 01:05:26,850 community which can be abduction and 1447 01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:30,540 killing so in Africa there's Jaguar 1448 01:05:36,290 --> 01:05:33,690 societies where if somebody's violated a 1449 01:05:40,060 --> 01:05:36,300 taboo and the thing that's enough to get 1450 01:05:42,740 --> 01:05:40,070 them you know either warned or killed 1451 01:05:44,450 --> 01:05:42,750 the Jaguar Society will show up in the 1452 01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:44,460 middle of the night and you know you 1453 01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:46,650 they may get a warning a scratch on the 1454 01:05:50,930 --> 01:05:48,530 door there might be some kind of sign 1455 01:05:53,300 --> 01:05:50,940 you know people will may be familiar 1456 01:05:55,580 --> 01:05:53,310 with it with you know southern conjurer 1457 01:05:58,070 --> 01:05:55,590 traditions of like somebody has you know 1458 01:06:01,010 --> 01:05:58,080 somebody sprinkle gravy or dust or brick 1459 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:01,020 dust in front of your door you know so 1460 01:06:06,530 --> 01:06:03,690 that kind of thing but they're actually 1461 01:06:10,190 --> 01:06:06,540 tied to almost like a secret society 1462 01:06:13,460 --> 01:06:10,200 group within these traditions and the 1463 01:06:18,830 --> 01:06:13,470 skinwalker comes from that so it's it's 1464 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:18,840 really interesting to me because the big 1465 01:06:22,940 --> 01:06:21,450 world you know what I mean so all sorts 1466 01:06:25,820 --> 01:06:22,950 of weird things could be could be 1467 01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:25,830 occurring you know I mean you I don't 1468 01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:28,770 know it speak as it were weird things 1469 01:06:35,410 --> 01:06:31,370 happening as we speak 1470 01:06:39,500 --> 01:06:35,420 interesting to see that kind of the 1471 01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:39,510 skinwalker mythos which is the Smith of 1472 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:41,610 these shape-shifting witches that come 1473 01:06:45,350 --> 01:06:43,410 out and they can mark you with bone 1474 01:06:50,380 --> 01:06:45,360 shards that poison you and that kind of 1475 01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:50,390 thing being aligned with a place that in 1476 01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:52,890 more contemporary terms people are 1477 01:06:58,490 --> 01:06:55,650 worried about you know government which 1478 01:07:01,190 --> 01:06:58,500 is basically testing weapons and that 1479 01:07:02,780 --> 01:07:01,200 kind of thing well it's interesting how 1480 01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:02,790 these things kind of coincidentally play 1481 01:07:06,710 --> 01:07:04,410 and do each other you know John 1482 01:07:08,690 --> 01:07:06,720 Alexander was on a couple of times on 1483 01:07:10,780 --> 01:07:08,700 shattered reality and he was one of the 1484 01:07:13,610 --> 01:07:10,790 people that Bigelow had out at the 1485 01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:13,620 skinwalker ranch and he told us 1486 01:07:19,460 --> 01:07:16,530 basically the thing that impressed him a 1487 01:07:22,610 --> 01:07:19,470 lot was that that they had had all these 1488 01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:22,620 security cameras on on the property and 1489 01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:25,970 while the security cameras were running 1490 01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:30,810 things disappeared right in right right 1491 01:07:35,660 --> 01:07:33,330 on on film they just disappeared and 1492 01:07:36,350 --> 01:07:35,670 there was no explanation for it 1493 01:07:38,780 --> 01:07:36,360 whatsoever 1494 01:07:42,620 --> 01:07:38,790 I know I'm not getting the full story by 1495 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:42,630 saying it in that manner but one 1496 01:07:47,180 --> 01:07:44,490 security camera was filming the other 1497 01:07:49,670 --> 01:07:47,190 security camera and during the time that 1498 01:07:51,650 --> 01:07:49,680 one of the security cameras disappeared 1499 01:07:54,530 --> 01:07:51,660 and wires were cut and nobody saw 1500 01:07:57,590 --> 01:07:54,540 anything being cut or what had 1501 01:07:58,760 --> 01:07:57,600 disappeared right yeah and there was 1502 01:08:00,650 --> 01:07:58,770 always I mean there's the mutilated 1503 01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:00,660 animals there I mean there's all sorts 1504 01:08:08,030 --> 01:08:03,810 of stuff it's very very intense I don't 1505 01:08:10,780 --> 01:08:08,040 you know I'm eager for Jeremy's movie to 1506 01:08:19,070 --> 01:08:10,790 come out to kind of see more about that 1507 01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:19,080 movie yes visit no I would visit I would 1508 01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:20,850 visit the skinwalker ranch but I 1509 01:08:26,570 --> 01:08:24,210 wouldn't visit it alone and I wouldn't 1510 01:08:28,430 --> 01:08:26,580 stay in a room alone at the skinwalker 1511 01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:28,440 ranch that's how I feel about it you 1512 01:08:35,329 --> 01:08:30,330 know I would visit Lee huh book for the 1513 01:08:38,189 --> 01:08:35,339 next 50 years I'm sorry that'd be great 1514 01:08:41,070 --> 01:08:38,199 a shattered reality's special 1515 01:08:42,870 --> 01:08:41,080 maybe maybe we can get I think Bigelow 1516 01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:42,880 sold it though now and there's another 1517 01:08:49,289 --> 01:08:46,810 owner yeah so we won't be the guests of 1518 01:08:52,260 --> 01:08:49,299 Robert Bigelow at the skinwalker ranch 1519 01:08:55,979 --> 01:08:52,270 or whatever it might be called today the 1520 01:08:56,999 --> 01:08:55,989 motel 6 on skin I don't think I'll be a 1521 01:08:59,010 --> 01:08:57,009 motel 6 1522 01:09:02,160 --> 01:08:59,020 isn't that the Cheney huh I guess it is 1523 01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:02,170 so you could have a block grant motel 6 1524 01:09:09,150 --> 01:09:03,489 that's true 1525 01:09:15,450 --> 01:09:09,160 would you like room 402 so what's next 1526 01:09:17,189 --> 01:09:15,460 for you I don't know I've always just so 1527 01:09:20,910 --> 01:09:17,199 it's interesting with the digital stuff 1528 01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:20,920 because I kind of take it moment by 1529 01:09:25,380 --> 01:09:23,770 moment so right now the stuff with the 1530 01:09:27,059 --> 01:09:25,390 wind bridge Research Center as the 1531 01:09:28,650 --> 01:09:27,069 editor-in-chief for threshold and that's 1532 01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:28,660 exciting that's gotten me more into the 1533 01:09:34,829 --> 01:09:33,279 parasite stuff uh-huh I'm working a 1534 01:09:37,490 --> 01:09:34,839 little bit I'll be writing the 1535 01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:37,500 introduction to my friend Craig's book 1536 01:09:43,430 --> 01:09:41,170 on the art of Haiti yeah well it's about 1537 01:09:46,380 --> 01:09:43,440 it's it's a weird it's a strange book 1538 01:09:47,849 --> 01:09:46,390 it's I don't even know how to describe 1539 01:09:50,550 --> 01:09:47,859 it it'll be like it's uh it's like 1540 01:09:52,860 --> 01:09:50,560 something that nobody has ever seen it's 1541 01:09:53,910 --> 01:09:52,870 a totally it's a totally new really 1542 01:09:56,550 --> 01:09:53,920 interesting concept 1543 01:09:58,979 --> 01:09:56,560 does it have a name it's it's all the 1544 01:10:03,300 --> 01:09:58,989 cult of Golgotha but that doesn't really 1545 01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:03,310 give an idea of what it's about it's 1546 01:10:11,150 --> 01:10:06,489 it's a it's a mix of traditional 1547 01:10:15,959 --> 01:10:11,160 Louisiana conjure which some Chicago 1548 01:10:20,220 --> 01:10:15,969 Gnostic voodoo influences Craigs spent a 1549 01:10:22,140 --> 01:10:20,230 lot of time in Nepal and it in India 1550 01:10:24,380 --> 01:10:22,150 actually with Frawley 1551 01:10:28,140 --> 01:10:24,390 if you know Frawley who was a big 1552 01:10:29,910 --> 01:10:28,150 proponent of Ayurveda in that but he he 1553 01:10:33,780 --> 01:10:29,920 had a strange visionary encounter when 1554 01:10:36,689 --> 01:10:33,790 he was in Nepal and he brought that back 1555 01:10:41,070 --> 01:10:36,699 with him and the cult of Golgotha is 1556 01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:41,080 going to be kind of that so I so a 1557 01:10:45,180 --> 01:10:43,330 little bit of southern conjurer Craig 1558 01:10:49,790 --> 01:10:45,190 grew up in Louisiana with the Spiritist 1559 01:10:53,820 --> 01:10:49,800 churches there and then a little bit of 1560 01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:53,830 nasty glue do a little bit of Vajrayana 1561 01:11:04,050 --> 01:11:00,000 a little bit of Ayurveda and sha by 1562 01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:04,060 yogic traditions yeah yeah and none of 1563 01:11:09,150 --> 01:11:07,090 it none of it violating the traditions 1564 01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:09,160 the it's coming out of which is 1565 01:11:13,940 --> 01:11:11,050 interesting a lot of times syncretism 1566 01:11:16,530 --> 01:11:13,950 can be a painful experience but he's 1567 01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:16,540 he's blended it in his practice in a 1568 01:11:21,060 --> 01:11:17,890 really interesting way and that's kind 1569 01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:21,070 of what this book is gonna present an 1570 01:11:25,770 --> 01:11:24,010 interesting look at how to sort of work 1571 01:11:28,110 --> 01:11:25,780 with multiple traditions in a 1572 01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:28,120 traditional way that's untraditional so 1573 01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:30,400 well I don't know if you've ever been to 1574 01:11:37,050 --> 01:11:33,010 the alligator bar on the alligator Bayou 1575 01:11:39,480 --> 01:11:37,060 in Louisiana which was basically it had 1576 01:11:42,690 --> 01:11:39,490 voodoo overtones I wouldn't say it was a 1577 01:11:45,780 --> 01:11:42,700 Voodoo bar but I went there once and it 1578 01:11:48,540 --> 01:11:45,790 was the time that I shall never forget 1579 01:11:51,270 --> 01:11:48,550 and a person such as myself who has 1580 01:11:54,270 --> 01:11:51,280 never smoked cigarettes after I finally 1581 01:11:56,610 --> 01:11:54,280 extricated myself from the place I smoke 1582 01:11:59,760 --> 01:11:56,620 three cigarettes in a row and it never 1583 01:12:03,540 --> 01:11:59,770 did that again but I was so nervous when 1584 01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:03,550 I left that being said why don't we wrap 1585 01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:05,890 things up with you telling us a little 1586 01:12:12,270 --> 01:12:09,850 bit about some of the Christian healing 1587 01:12:16,470 --> 01:12:12,280 traditions that are happening in the 1588 01:12:18,300 --> 01:12:16,480 south oh sure yeah that it was one of 1589 01:12:21,450 --> 01:12:18,310 the kind of most interesting things 1590 01:12:23,850 --> 01:12:21,460 about living down here has been seeing 1591 01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:23,860 the living traditions again outside of 1592 01:12:28,170 --> 01:12:25,930 kind of the the way the culture looks at 1593 01:12:31,410 --> 01:12:28,180 him and when I was at that Kris Matic 1594 01:12:34,890 --> 01:12:31,420 food ministry or fellow that I worked 1595 01:12:39,630 --> 01:12:34,900 with the logistics director actually for 1596 01:12:41,970 --> 01:12:39,640 the the trucking routes and that he one 1597 01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:41,980 day a lady had gotten a phone call her 1598 01:12:46,770 --> 01:12:45,520 kid had gotten a burn and he turns to 1599 01:12:50,670 --> 01:12:46,780 her and he goes oh did you need me to 1600 01:12:54,030 --> 01:12:50,680 talk out the fire and I was immediately 1601 01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:54,040 piqued and was rude and asked him after 1602 01:12:57,780 --> 01:12:55,810 he had had talked to her about it I was 1603 01:12:59,790 --> 01:12:57,790 like did you know what do you do you're 1604 01:13:02,460 --> 01:12:59,800 talking about a healing tradition like 1605 01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:02,470 what is this and so he told me about it 1606 01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:08,170 and it's a traditional it's it'sin 1607 01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:11,250 conjured traditions it's also in powwow 1608 01:13:17,370 --> 01:13:13,570 if people are familiar with the 1609 01:13:20,130 --> 01:13:17,380 Pennsylvania folk magic traditions the 1610 01:13:22,740 --> 01:13:20,140 German folk magic traditions up there 1611 01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:22,750 but essentially reading a specific 1612 01:13:29,340 --> 01:13:25,810 passage in the Bible in a prayerful way 1613 01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:29,350 that heals burns but you have to be 1614 01:13:33,330 --> 01:13:31,090 given you have to it's a transmission 1615 01:13:35,460 --> 01:13:33,340 and it's a transition from male to 1616 01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:35,470 female or female to male it happened 1617 01:13:42,330 --> 01:13:38,650 that his kid had gotten a burn and one 1618 01:13:45,330 --> 01:13:42,340 of his wife's family friends she knew 1619 01:13:47,490 --> 01:13:45,340 how to talk out the fire and told it to 1620 01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:47,500 him gave him the tradition and passed it 1621 01:13:52,110 --> 01:13:49,930 to him but he could only pass it on to a 1622 01:13:54,510 --> 01:13:52,120 woman and it was interesting because I 1623 01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:54,520 read reading the stuff in the Library of 1624 01:13:58,200 --> 01:13:55,930 Congress and some of the the 1625 01:14:00,450 --> 01:13:58,210 folkloristic stuff the tradition that he 1626 01:14:02,340 --> 01:14:00,460 was telling me was exactly the tradition 1627 01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:02,350 that was orally recorded in the 60s 50s 1628 01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:05,770 40s 20s the difference being that he 1629 01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:07,330 didn't read any of that stuff I mean 1630 01:14:17,310 --> 01:14:12,690 this was a church-going Korea's Matic I 1631 01:14:19,410 --> 01:14:17,320 know his grandparents were you know 1632 01:14:22,490 --> 01:14:19,420 holiness tradition which is a fairly 1633 01:14:25,440 --> 01:14:22,500 fundamentalist form of Pentecostal and 1634 01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:25,450 so he'd never read the New Age stuff 1635 01:14:29,820 --> 01:14:27,730 he'd never read any of the kind of 1636 01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:29,830 occult revival stuff that you know 1637 01:14:33,510 --> 01:14:31,360 brought this stuff and he'd never read 1638 01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:33,520 any of that he just got the straight 1639 01:14:37,530 --> 01:14:34,810 tradition and it was really interesting 1640 01:14:40,770 --> 01:14:37,540 and I've encountered that multiple times 1641 01:14:42,480 --> 01:14:40,780 down here just you know going around and 1642 01:14:46,230 --> 01:14:42,490 talking to people and being into this 1643 01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:46,240 kind of weird stuff it's still alive and 1644 01:14:48,780 --> 01:14:47,890 it's it's pretty amazing and it's not 1645 01:14:50,610 --> 01:14:48,790 the you know it's not like a 1646 01:14:54,540 --> 01:14:50,620 televangelist kind of faith healing 1647 01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:54,550 tradition there's one guy by where I 1648 01:15:02,610 --> 01:14:57,570 live his great-great-great 1649 01:15:04,170 --> 01:15:02,620 great-grandfather was doc Paul and at 1650 01:15:06,870 --> 01:15:04,180 the time if you were called a doctor 1651 01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:06,880 that may be healed if you were called a 1652 01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:10,810 professor that meant that you knew so in 1653 01:15:14,130 --> 01:15:12,610 the local healing traditions and that so 1654 01:15:15,770 --> 01:15:14,140 that the doctor would be somebody who 1655 01:15:19,490 --> 01:15:15,780 had the divine gift of healing 1656 01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:19,500 and this guy brand a local store but he 1657 01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:22,410 could talk out Byrnes he could stop 1658 01:15:28,810 --> 01:15:25,890 bleeding which is another form of kind 1659 01:15:31,010 --> 01:15:28,820 of Bible magic where there's a specific 1660 01:15:34,430 --> 01:15:31,020 passage in the Bible or passages 1661 01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:34,440 depending on how it's but you read that 1662 01:15:40,610 --> 01:15:37,410 passage and you pray over the the cut or 1663 01:15:43,190 --> 01:15:40,620 the burned and that goes away but yeah 1664 01:15:45,670 --> 01:15:43,200 this guy Walter mccannon had all these 1665 01:15:47,450 --> 01:15:45,680 great stories about his 1666 01:15:51,470 --> 01:15:47,460 great-great-great great-grandfather 1667 01:15:54,380 --> 01:15:51,480 doing this healing and it's really it's 1668 01:15:56,390 --> 01:15:54,390 it's all over its I don't see it in 1669 01:15:57,980 --> 01:15:56,400 terms of people out doing it because 1670 01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,990 these are very communal practices and 1671 01:16:02,840 --> 01:15:59,520 the communities are really breaking down 1672 01:16:04,550 --> 01:16:02,850 but the memories are still here and you 1673 01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:04,560 know it still bleeds in the one of the 1674 01:16:08,330 --> 01:16:06,570 things I'm really fascinated with it's 1675 01:16:09,770 --> 01:16:08,340 not a healing but it is sort of a 1676 01:16:12,530 --> 01:16:09,780 healing tradition but exorcism 1677 01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:12,540 traditions sure when you see those on TV 1678 01:16:16,340 --> 01:16:13,890 they're often presented in the news 1679 01:16:18,170 --> 01:16:16,350 media like oh you know there was a 1680 01:16:20,870 --> 01:16:18,180 Catholic exorcism and this is totally 1681 01:16:23,690 --> 01:16:20,880 weird and whoever does this now but if 1682 01:16:26,780 --> 01:16:23,700 you go to Walmart and this is up north 1683 01:16:28,700 --> 01:16:26,790 this is in Chicago or down here or 1684 01:16:31,190 --> 01:16:28,710 anywhere I've been you know in New York 1685 01:16:33,590 --> 01:16:31,200 the in Walmart if they've got an 1686 01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:33,600 inspirational section in their book 1687 01:16:37,430 --> 01:16:35,610 section a lot of times they'll have just 1688 01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:37,440 straight-up exorcism manuals coming out 1689 01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:38,810 of the Pentecostal and charismatic 1690 01:16:45,620 --> 01:16:42,290 tradition and you know down here 1691 01:16:48,730 --> 01:16:45,630 definitely in grocery stores yeah every 1692 01:16:52,490 --> 01:16:48,740 other month I'm in Kroger and at their 1693 01:16:55,310 --> 01:16:52,500 choice book rack there's one two three 1694 01:16:58,880 --> 01:16:55,320 books on exorcism or something aligned 1695 01:17:00,890 --> 01:16:58,890 to that or spiritual healing or you know 1696 01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:00,900 and these are very popular if the the 1697 01:17:07,610 --> 01:17:03,210 resale shops you know I go in and get 1698 01:17:09,890 --> 01:17:07,620 these amazing books on the contemporary 1699 01:17:11,330 --> 01:17:09,900 Christian Exorcist traditions and it's 1700 01:17:12,950 --> 01:17:11,340 just these things that don't they don't 1701 01:17:14,780 --> 01:17:12,960 need that they then way the media 1702 01:17:18,230 --> 01:17:14,790 portrays them in this kind of alien 1703 01:17:20,300 --> 01:17:18,240 other fashion what I found is if you 1704 01:17:22,670 --> 01:17:20,310 just walk around and actually look like 1705 01:17:25,550 --> 01:17:22,680 it's everywhere it's it's incredible you 1706 01:17:27,140 --> 01:17:25,560 know at least commercially you know 1707 01:17:28,770 --> 01:17:27,150 commercially available showing that 1708 01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:28,780 there's a market for it so 1709 01:17:38,580 --> 01:17:32,650 well what what do you think the the the 1710 01:17:41,430 --> 01:17:38,590 fact or the necessity for belief is in a 1711 01:17:43,890 --> 01:17:41,440 tradition of this sort not this specific 1712 01:17:46,050 --> 01:17:43,900 tradition but don't you think that the 1713 01:17:48,690 --> 01:17:46,060 the person the practitioner and the 1714 01:17:51,440 --> 01:17:48,700 person who is being practiced upon the 1715 01:17:54,090 --> 01:17:51,450 the victim of whatever has happened 1716 01:17:57,780 --> 01:17:54,100 isn't it important that they both 1717 01:17:59,220 --> 01:17:57,790 believe or is it not important it's an 1718 01:18:04,020 --> 01:17:59,230 interesting question because you know 1719 01:18:06,660 --> 01:18:04,030 that there's William Bankston oh yes I 1720 01:18:11,340 --> 01:18:06,670 know William banks knows sure yeah his 1721 01:18:14,180 --> 01:18:11,350 research on healing showed that it 1722 01:18:17,430 --> 01:18:14,190 really just required the I think the 1723 01:18:20,700 --> 01:18:17,440 person being healed had to believe but 1724 01:18:22,230 --> 01:18:20,710 the person who was healing didn't he 1725 01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:22,240 found the you know I think it was the 1726 01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:25,210 mice experiments where the mice they got 1727 01:18:29,100 --> 01:18:27,250 healed and you know they didn't they 1728 01:18:31,050 --> 01:18:29,110 obviously didn't have to believe it and 1729 01:18:32,670 --> 01:18:31,060 he found that when the people tried to 1730 01:18:34,730 --> 01:18:32,680 heal the mice it actually got a worse 1731 01:18:38,820 --> 01:18:34,740 result than if they just were there 1732 01:18:40,890 --> 01:18:38,830 healing the mouse right you know it's 1733 01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:40,900 really it's an interesting dynamic I 1734 01:18:45,030 --> 01:18:42,730 think that's something that requires 1735 01:18:49,770 --> 01:18:45,040 more research really the this 1736 01:18:55,170 --> 01:18:49,780 interaction between belief because with 1737 01:18:57,150 --> 01:18:55,180 the Santa Muerte stuff folks encounter 1738 01:19:00,030 --> 01:18:57,160 the iconography and whether they believe 1739 01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:00,040 it or not sometimes it has an effect on 1740 01:19:05,790 --> 01:19:02,650 that child you know and then maybe they 1741 01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:05,800 had some latent belief hovering in there 1742 01:19:10,860 --> 01:19:08,170 and that is a really curious dynamic I 1743 01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:10,870 mean I'm not sure which brings me to a 1744 01:19:15,570 --> 01:19:12,970 totally different subject but I'm sure 1745 01:19:18,330 --> 01:19:15,580 you're conversant in it people who have 1746 01:19:21,210 --> 01:19:18,340 near-death experiences for instance 1747 01:19:23,940 --> 01:19:21,220 there are people who have been Jewish 1748 01:19:27,210 --> 01:19:23,950 and have been converted to Christianity 1749 01:19:29,070 --> 01:19:27,220 or Christians who've seen Buddha and you 1750 01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:29,080 know it goes on and on in other words 1751 01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:31,810 the religion of you that you practice or 1752 01:19:38,010 --> 01:19:34,330 the religion of your childhood is not 1753 01:19:40,170 --> 01:19:38,020 necessarily what you see it can be but 1754 01:19:42,030 --> 01:19:40,180 it's not necessarily what you see when 1755 01:19:42,270 --> 01:19:42,040 you have these near-death experiences 1756 01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:42,280 that 1757 01:19:47,490 --> 01:19:45,970 it's caused some I wish I could say this 1758 01:19:53,490 --> 01:19:47,500 I passed 1759 01:20:00,420 --> 01:19:53,500 apostasy oh yeah or inversions yeah yeah 1760 01:20:02,450 --> 01:20:00,430 that's in in terms of in terms of 1761 01:20:05,010 --> 01:20:02,460 researching that stuff qualitatively 1762 01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:05,020 you've really got to go into like kind 1763 01:20:08,550 --> 01:20:06,370 of an in depth thing because a lot of 1764 01:20:14,970 --> 01:20:08,560 times people will have doubts or they'll 1765 01:20:18,390 --> 01:20:14,980 have a their influences you know so you 1766 01:20:20,550 --> 01:20:18,400 kind of have to go into seeing where 1767 01:20:24,660 --> 01:20:20,560 what what is the struggle you see that a 1768 01:20:27,750 --> 01:20:24,670 lot of times with I think the kind of 1769 01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:27,760 popular occultism attracts a lot of 1770 01:20:32,610 --> 01:20:30,610 guilty Christians a high and they become 1771 01:20:34,740 --> 01:20:32,620 very like bitter against Christianity 1772 01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:34,750 and bitter against everything Christian 1773 01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:37,090 and what's interesting is when they're 1774 01:20:43,590 --> 01:20:40,570 talking about occultism a lot of times 1775 01:20:45,300 --> 01:20:43,600 the Christians are better at cultists so 1776 01:20:47,850 --> 01:20:45,310 you know like Billy Graham was a way 1777 01:20:51,590 --> 01:20:47,860 better sorcerer than most people who 1778 01:20:53,910 --> 01:20:51,600 would claim to be practicing sorcery and 1779 01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:53,920 just in terms of what the traditional 1780 01:20:58,980 --> 01:20:57,010 idea of a sorcerer was he was putting 1781 01:21:01,800 --> 01:20:58,990 demons in people when he talked about 1782 01:21:03,660 --> 01:21:01,810 how much of a sinner they were and he 1783 01:21:06,270 --> 01:21:03,670 was taking that demon out when he said 1784 01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:06,280 go to Jesus and he was doing it full 1785 01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:08,170 well knowing the manipulations of crowd 1786 01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:11,010 stop it was essentially using sorcery 1787 01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:16,210 and I think that those experiences the 1788 01:21:20,070 --> 01:21:18,000 the near-death experience is so 1789 01:21:21,900 --> 01:21:20,080 interesting because there's that 1790 01:21:23,970 --> 01:21:21,910 underlying experience that's happening 1791 01:21:25,500 --> 01:21:23,980 this numinous experience and then 1792 01:21:29,790 --> 01:21:25,510 there's these cognitive overlays that 1793 01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:29,800 kind of speak to that you know in terms 1794 01:21:33,660 --> 01:21:32,530 of of the conversions and that it'd be 1795 01:21:37,980 --> 01:21:33,670 interesting to see if the people 1796 01:21:40,620 --> 01:21:37,990 converted to a serious version of that 1797 01:21:42,780 --> 01:21:40,630 religion you know dude I'm saying like 1798 01:21:45,990 --> 01:21:42,790 like absolutely I know what you're 1799 01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:46,000 saying yes well I haven't researched it 1800 01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:49,570 myself one on one but I will say one on 1801 01:21:55,050 --> 01:21:50,170 one 1802 01:21:58,950 --> 01:21:55,060 my experience with like lapsed Chris 1803 01:22:02,280 --> 01:21:58,960 women who have gone into nature 1804 01:22:05,100 --> 01:22:02,290 religions as as an alternative or 1805 01:22:08,190 --> 01:22:05,110 goddess worship or anything in that 1806 01:22:11,850 --> 01:22:08,200 spectrum many of them have had bad 1807 01:22:14,940 --> 01:22:11,860 experiences with Christianity where they 1808 01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:14,950 were like slut-shamed because they've 1809 01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:17,730 got pregnant or something or they were 1810 01:22:27,360 --> 01:22:24,250 somehow told by the patriarchy within a 1811 01:22:29,820 --> 01:22:27,370 church whether it be Protestant or 1812 01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:29,830 Catholic that that they were worthless 1813 01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:32,650 and they should not go under and will 1814 01:22:38,190 --> 01:22:34,930 take on this traditional female role 1815 01:22:40,340 --> 01:22:38,200 that they were not they were not into 1816 01:22:45,240 --> 01:22:40,350 that and so many people that I know 1817 01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:45,250 that's a my own my own theory there but 1818 01:22:51,150 --> 01:22:47,650 we are getting far afield we are so 1819 01:22:54,420 --> 01:22:51,160 happy that you came on the show we are 1820 01:22:56,490 --> 01:22:54,430 we've gone over an hour now and we 1821 01:22:59,280 --> 01:22:56,500 usually cut things off in an hour so we 1822 01:23:01,110 --> 01:22:59,290 would like to have you back again at 1823 01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:01,120 some point in the future if you would 1824 01:23:05,340 --> 01:23:03,730 agree and maybe maybe I'll be able to 1825 01:23:12,300 --> 01:23:05,350 stick to one subject what do you think 1826 01:23:15,180 --> 01:23:12,310 and I doubt that would you want to see 1827 01:23:17,820 --> 01:23:15,190 mr. Metcalfe seems to be able to handle 1828 01:23:20,010 --> 01:23:17,830 always yes he dodges quite quite that's 1829 01:23:22,530 --> 01:23:20,020 why I threw them at him yes I knew he 1830 01:23:24,330 --> 01:23:22,540 Gregory could speak to all these things 1831 01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:24,340 and if we had more time we talked about 1832 01:23:29,010 --> 01:23:26,770 the food of the fairy people or 1833 01:23:30,750 --> 01:23:29,020 something like that we're not gonna have 1834 01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:30,760 the time for that today and we're not 1835 01:23:37,860 --> 01:23:33,010 going camping in the forest or going to 1836 01:23:40,590 --> 01:23:37,870 the skinwalker ranch with with other 1837 01:23:42,270 --> 01:23:40,600 people I'm not going alone but Jim I'm 1838 01:23:45,570 --> 01:23:42,280 not the camping type because I get 1839 01:23:49,110 --> 01:23:45,580 mosquito bites and you know who wants to 1840 01:23:51,420 --> 01:23:49,120 get that stuff going on no but thank you 1841 01:23:54,690 --> 01:23:51,430 so much mister thank you and is there 1842 01:23:58,080 --> 01:23:54,700 anything you would like to like promote 1843 01:24:00,320 --> 01:23:58,090 as a final as a final word because we're 1844 01:24:03,090 --> 01:24:00,330 here with David Metcalf who is a 1845 01:24:05,070 --> 01:24:03,100 fascinating person who's done a lot of 1846 01:24:08,820 --> 01:24:05,080 research is anything you want to promote 1847 01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:08,830 I would recommend folks check 1848 01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:11,770 threshold on the wind bridge research 1849 01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:15,930 centers thing it's a pretty interesting 1850 01:24:21,870 --> 01:24:18,730 journal in terms of covering a lot of 1851 01:24:25,410 --> 01:24:21,880 bases if they want to check out the 1852 01:24:29,070 --> 01:24:25,420 Santa Muerte material Andrew and I run 1853 01:24:33,360 --> 01:24:29,080 skeleton st. calm and that goes back to 1854 01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:33,370 about 2013 so there's a ton of material 1855 01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:38,290 on there I'm on medium as I think it's 1856 01:24:43,020 --> 01:24:41,770 DB Metcalf or David B Metcalf on medium 1857 01:24:45,570 --> 01:24:43,030 so if they want to read my writing 1858 01:24:49,110 --> 01:24:45,580 medium is a is a great place for a 1859 01:24:53,010 --> 01:24:49,120 really cutting-edge writing I enjoy 1860 01:24:55,350 --> 01:24:53,020 reading a lot of it I do want to to 1861 01:24:57,630 --> 01:24:55,360 recommend that to people on a variety of 1862 01:25:01,560 --> 01:24:57,640 subjects a lot of social subjects that 1863 01:25:03,420 --> 01:25:01,570 are very contemporary contemporary 1864 01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:03,430 social subjects as well as the kind of 1865 01:25:12,110 --> 01:25:06,690 things that that you might be writing so 1866 01:25:13,890 --> 01:25:12,120 thank you so much David and B Metcalf 1867 01:25:16,590 --> 01:25:13,900 have a great evening 1868 01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:16,600 yeah thanks again absolutely yeah I'm 1869 01:25:25,830 --> 01:25:18,850 looking forward to further conversations 1870 01:25:28,370 --> 01:25:25,840 me too great okay bye-bye now day so 1871 01:25:30,900 --> 01:25:28,380 that was a very very interesting 1872 01:25:33,090 --> 01:25:30,910 wide-ranging that's her sir yeah and I 1873 01:25:35,490 --> 01:25:33,100 like it the way he can just talk to any 1874 01:25:40,710 --> 01:25:35,500 subject and well and well yeah very very 1875 01:25:43,860 --> 01:25:40,720 astutely let's make mention of our next 1876 01:25:48,050 --> 01:25:43,870 guest which as if our schedule holds up 1877 01:25:53,730 --> 01:25:48,060 as expected will be mr. rich martini who 1878 01:25:56,730 --> 01:25:53,740 has taken up Newton's role in life 1879 01:25:59,220 --> 01:25:56,740 between life studies and he's a very 1880 01:26:05,300 --> 01:25:59,230 entertaining speaker and we're going to 1881 01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:05,310 have him on next and beyond that please 1882 01:26:14,850 --> 01:26:10,290 write us a letter send us an email right 1883 01:26:19,620 --> 01:26:14,860 on our either of our two blog places or 1884 01:26:22,130 --> 01:26:19,630 on the shattered reality podcast channel 1885 01:26:25,350 --> 01:26:22,140 on YouTube 1886 01:26:27,180 --> 01:26:25,360 please contact us on Facebook like us 1887 01:26:29,100 --> 01:26:27,190 that's what I really want you to do like 1888 01:26:32,810 --> 01:26:29,110 us everywhere and if you would like to 1889 01:26:35,580 --> 01:26:32,820 come on the show with a listener 1890 01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:35,590 experience on our listeners corner as 1891 01:26:40,860 --> 01:26:38,770 the Magnificent Stephanie quick did in 1892 01:26:45,930 --> 01:26:40,870 the past Jen that and then the last show 1893 01:26:51,690 --> 01:26:45,940 please get in touch and so and so I